Serious Goldfish And Tropicals Discussion

[Assaye]

I currently have two fancy goldfish in a 290 litre tank with 4 tropicals (red-finned shark, 2 CAEs and a bristlenose cat).

The mix isn't my choice - the goldfish needed the big tank and those fish came with the tank I got. I am looking into alternative acommodation for the shark, CAEs and catfish.

However, I do want an honest discussion about keeping tropicals and goldfish together. Fancy goldfish prefer 15-22C but are quite happy at 24-25C which is also an excellent temperature for a number of tropical fish. Goldfish are regularly kept well in warm climates where the ambient temperature regularly rises above 25C, such as parts of China (where fancy goldfish originate), Japan and the USA. Goldfish do produce a lot of waste (which is often cited a reason not to mix them with trops) but then we don't mind when someone has a large plec with smaller trops as long as the filtration is OK. Goldfish can be boisterous but there are plenty of tropicals that are robust or fast enough to handle this. Goldfish may eat small fish but that says little about their attitude to larger ones. Goldfish may be bullied as they are slow swimming (at times) and slightly cumbersome, but it's not as though we speed test all our tropicals before we pick them. They may be outcompeted for food but can easily be trained to come to the top of the tank when needed. They have different dietry requirements to tropicals but catfish need different food to cichlids which need different food to live bearers, yet we can keep them together as long as the water parameters is acceptable and aggressive cichlids or catfish are chosen.

In short, all the problems I know of with keeping fancy goldfish with tropicals can be circumvented and also apply to make stock lists that we don't have many problems with.

So, what is the real verdict on keeping fancies with tropicals? What have I missed?

I'm not trying to start an arguement and I don't want anyone telling me to "go away and do some more research before asking stupid questions" or making a snide comment. This is research and I'm opening this thread because I have read about goldfish until my eyes bleed and yet I can't find and answer to this question that isn't just regurgitated 'wisdom'.

 

[LongS]

I think everything you have wrote is valid and i totally agree with it. In my opinion there has been a barrier put up by'old school' fish keepers and they stick to their guns strongly. I however do not disagree with their strict methods of not mixing them as they have success no doubt, but then again people do have success mixing the species. This is almost the same as people mixing Hillstream loaches (subtropical) with warmer climate species.

If you can provide multiple species that vary in demands with a comfortable climate then why not? we go out of our way to do it with 'tropical' fish at different ends of the scale.

Only the extremes should be avoided in my opinion such as goldfish and cichlids that require temperatures around 30 degrees.

 

[Verminator89]

Well quite simply put why do they often sell Danio's in a goldfish section. Why do they sell white cloud mountain minnow in the goldfish section, and then tell us we can have these in our tropical tanks? I've often wondered this. I have successfully mixed my goldfish when i had them with some clown loach a few years ago when i started in the hobby. What started as a naive mistake actually turned out to be quite a successfull partnership between the two. Like LongS says providing you can maintain a happy medium of conditions that doesnt sacrafice too much of eithers normal living requirements, and you avoid the extremes for each, i don't see why its an issue to mix certain tropicals with goldfish. Obviously in my opinion it would be foolish however to add goldfish to an Oscar tank as such, or something similar. But for the most part in a tank big enough it can successfully be done without too much issue.

 

[Wills]

I kind of agree, not sure if its a barrier but more like the lack of people taking goldfish serious I mean at the end of the day people keep cichlids which are just as messy and probably more problematic in general than goldfish.

Realistically though it just takes someone to spend enough cash and research them enough for it to work - rule out just what is and isnt going to work with goldfish long term ie small fish - similar rules to angels and neons but probably adult goldfish and white clouds.

There are a lot of temporate fish in the hobby now so it could be worth a try.

I do still think that adult goldfish (Commons) belong in ponds not tanks though but I think that a fancy goldy community could work.

In contrast to my first statement I think that the people that specialise in goldfish are so defensive over how they are kept that at the mere mention of this subject makes their blood boil. So its probably both extremes and not many middle points and when someone either tries it through either error or experimentation they are just dismissed as a novice but if your set up can prove them wrong thats the point to be made.

Wills

 

[Twinklecaz]

I'd say it has merit. When you have a community you have to find an average temp that kinda suits all the fish anway. It may not be ideal for any of them but you have to find a middle ground. My tank is prob slightly too warm for my Platys for example.


As for nutrients I'm sure that could be overcome. You could feed something that's best for the goldies one say and then best for the trops/catfish the next. They'd all end up getting what they needed.

With regard to mess you'd just have to keep up the cleaning. I find I have to do that coz of my Platys anyway coz they make sure a mess. I'd be horrified to find a fish that's worse

 

[Assaye]

These are all really interesting responses

I definitely don't want to keep the CAEs if I don't have to. I have 5 that came with that tank and I have had to split them into several other tanks. I have one in a 60 litre and two in a 65 litre, plus the two in the big tank. None of my LFS will take them, either. Don't know what to do

However, if my shark and plec can stay with the goldies, I'll be very happy. I've got some other fish that will need a larger tank soon (notably my blue phantom plec) and it would be ace to have them in with the goldies if I can make it work. I know opinions are always going to be divided but you guys are right that we frequently make communities that are compromises for the fish, such as having rams with corys and stuff like that.

Have any of you got suggestions for possible goldfish compatible fish? I've been looking at congo tetra because they get big and would like a big tank and they also do well at lower temps (23-25C). They wouldn't become a snack, that's for sure! Goldies are small as well and I figure that if they grow up with other fish they'll be less likely to bully them, much like keeping angels with smaller fish which people claim can work if the angels are introduced when little.

 

[Twinklecaz]

I know I'm like president of the Platy fan club but I'm sure they'd work? Seeing as the like quite cool temps anyway. Dunno if they get on with Goldies though?

 

[Channti]

These are all really interesting responses

I definitely don't want to keep the CAEs if I don't have to. I have 5 that came with that tank and I have had to split them into several other tanks. I have one in a 60 litre and two in a 65 litre, plus the two in the big tank. None of my LFS will take them, either. Don't know what to do

I had two common plecs and a common goldfish that my friend was keeping in a 25 US gallon tank. She called me last week and informed me that she was moving and needed to get rid of them, ASAP. Asked me if I'd take the fish, as I originally gave her the goldfish (at the time, she had a pond and could have grown him out and put him in the pond). I went and picked up the fish this morning, bagged them up, walked into my local pet store, tracked down the manager and the conversation went like this.

Me: "I need to get rid of these fish"
Manager: "We can't take in any donations right now. I'm sorry."
Me: "I need to get rid of these fish. 2 plecos and a goldfish. If you don't take them, I'll flush them, and neither of us want me to do that."
Manager: "Give me 5 minutes to empty one of the coldwater tanks."

Within ten minutes, he'd moved fish around and made space for the goldfish and two plecos in his newest line of tanks.

If you're insistant, show up with the fish, and threaten to flush (even if it is an empty threat), most stores will take them. Particularly if the store manager is a fishkeeper. If this manager had refused the fish still, I would have taken them to another pet store and repeated the process. He promised me that he'd ensure the goldfish was adopted by someone who intended to put him in a pond.

Worst comes to worst, I know PetSmart, Big Al's and other chain stores will take donations.

 

[Assaye]

These are all really interesting responses

I definitely don't want to keep the CAEs if I don't have to. I have 5 that came with that tank and I have had to split them into several other tanks. I have one in a 60 litre and two in a 65 litre, plus the two in the big tank. None of my LFS will take them, either. Don't know what to do

I had two common plecs and a common goldfish that my friend was keeping in a 25 US gallon tank. She called me last week and informed me that she was moving and needed to get rid of them, ASAP. Asked me if I'd take the fish, as I originally gave her the goldfish (at the time, she had a pond and could have grown him out and put him in the pond). I went and picked up the fish this morning, bagged them up, walked into my local pet store, tracked down the manager and the conversation went like this.

Me: "I need to get rid of these fish"
Manager: "We can't take in any donations right now. I'm sorry."
Me: "I need to get rid of these fish. 2 plecos and a goldfish. If you don't take them, I'll flush them, and neither of us want me to do that."
Manager: "Give me 5 minutes to empty one of the coldwater tanks."

Within ten minutes, he'd moved fish around and made space for the goldfish and two plecos in his newest line of tanks.

If you're insistant, show up with the fish, and threaten to flush (even if it is an empty threat), most stores will take them. Particularly if the store manager is a fishkeeper. If this manager had refused the fish still, I would have taken them to another pet store and repeated the process. He promised me that he'd ensure the goldfish was adopted by someone who intended to put him in a pond.

Worst comes to worst, I know PetSmart, Big Al's and other chain stores will take donations.

I'm in the UK and I don't have a car. Only three lfs I can get to but one of them is still a 40 minute bus ride away. I'll keep trying to place the CAEs but I know none of the shops will ensure they go to good homes. They're all stocked as "small, peaceful algae eaters" there. Plus the people know me and I know that I would never flush a fish.

Gunna post on here to see if someone will take them off my hands.

 

[mattlee]

denisonii barbs prefer cooler temps

 

[fishnovice]

I currently have two fancy goldfish in a 290 litre tank with 4 tropicals (red-finned shark, 2 CAEs and a bristlenose cat).

The mix isn't my choice - the goldfish needed the big tank and those fish came with the tank I got. I am looking into alternative acommodation for the shark, CAEs and catfish.

However, I do want an honest discussion about keeping tropicals and goldfish together. Fancy goldfish prefer 15-22C but are quite happy at 24-25C which is also an excellent temperature for a number of tropical fish. Goldfish are regularly kept well in warm climates where the ambient temperature regularly rises above 25C, such as parts of China (where fancy goldfish originate), Japan and the USA. Goldfish do produce a lot of waste (which is often cited a reason not to mix them with trops) but then we don't mind when someone has a large plec with smaller trops as long as the filtration is OK. Goldfish can be boisterous but there are plenty of tropicals that are robust or fast enough to handle this. Goldfish may eat small fish but that says little about their attitude to larger ones. Goldfish may be bullied as they are slow swimming (at times) and slightly cumbersome, but it's not as though we speed test all our tropicals before we pick them. They may be outcompeted for food but can easily be trained to come to the top of the tank when needed. They have different dietry requirements to tropicals but catfish need different food to cichlids which need different food to live bearers, yet we can keep them together as long as the water parameters is acceptable and aggressive cichlids or catfish are chosen.

In short, all the problems I know of with keeping fancy goldfish with tropicals can be circumvented and also apply to make stock lists that we don't have many problems with.

So, what is the real verdict on keeping fancies with tropicals? What have I missed?

I'm not trying to start an arguement and I don't want anyone telling me to "go away and do some more research before asking stupid questions" or making a snide comment. This is research and I'm opening this thread because I have read about goldfish until my eyes bleed and yet I can't find and answer to this question that isn't just regurgitated 'wisdom'.

I kept a smallish 8in common plec happily with several goldfish for 4 onths. I was forced to adopt the plec at short notice and had nowhere else to put it. The only 2 serious problems I envisage are
1. CAE attack goldfish and suck their slime -separate them ASAP
2. Goldies can survive happily at 25' (the current temp of my large outdoor coldwater tank in summer) but don't let the temp arise above this. I lost 4 goldfish in one day during the last London heatwave when their tank temp rose to 30' and hastily moved the survivors indoors. They recovered imediately in cooler water.
PS: I can adopt the BN if you are in London or can get fish to London

 

[Assaye]

I kept a smallish 8in common plec happily with several goldfish for 4 onths. I was forced to adopt the plec at short notice and had nowhere else to put it. The only 2 serious problems I envisage are
1. CAE attack goldfish and suck their slime -separate them ASAP
2. Goldies can survive happily at 25' (the current temp of my large outdoor coldwater tank in summer) but don't let the temp arise above this. I lost 4 goldfish in one day during the last London heatwave when their tank temp rose to 30' and hastily moved the survivors indoors. They recovered imediately in cooler water.
PS: I can adopt the BN if you are in London or can get fish to London

Thanks for the offer to adopt the BN but I've got plenty of places to put him if I decide not to keep him with the goldies

The CAEs are my big worry. They are behaving at the moment but who knows how long that will last. Getting some of them rehomed is my priority.

 

[kizno1]

I dont know how true it is but ive heard quite a few people saying about plecs and CAE sucking onto the sides of goldfish for there slime coats and there a fairly easy target.

 

[Assaye]

I dont know how true it is but ive heard quite a few people saying about plecs and CAE sucking onto the sides of goldfish for there slime coats and there a fairly easy target.

Yeah, I know about this. Plecs are a moderate risk but CAEs are pretty high risk.