saying the quiet part out loud

[Innesfan]

We've had several discussions about the unfortunate, misleading and ill-informed trade names slapped onto various species and varieties. These names are often random, seldom helpful in the matter of identification of the fish, and rarely if ever rise to truly common or popular names such as Neon Tetra or Kissing Gourami. They are, we have assumed, simply an effort on the part of tradesmen to make fish marketable. Most of us have expressed frustration or outright disdain for the practice. Well, this one really crosses the line in my book.

I know there are not a lot of goldfish fanciers here but I suspect many of you know that an Oranda is a goldfish variety distinguished by headgrowth (a 'hood') and a dorsal fin, as opposed to Lionheads and Ranchu which are headgrowth varieties without a dorsal. Well, Aquarium Glaser, an otherwise reptuable outfit, is marketing a black and white goldfish as an 'Oranda Panda.' It is in fact a black and white fantail. Here's their defense of the name--

<<An Oranda on the other hand, is a goldfish with a hood, in breeding terms. Accordingly, the cute pandas that we were finally able to import again are magpie-colored butterfly tails. But “Oranda Panda” sounds more catchy, don't you think? There is a difference between the technical language of breeders and the sales designation.>>

The 'technical language of breeders'? Orandas are a centuries-old variety whose name is in truly common usage throughout the world, and they have been identified as such for over a century everywhere, even currently in the big chain stores. And in their final statement, Glaser says the quiet part out loud. "There is a difference between the technical language of breeders and the sales designation." I'll say!

I realize there are a lot more important things to be upset about, but this really gets up my nose.

 

[fishorama]

That is why I hate so called common names. "Panda" in any fish name implies black & white cuteness, for while it lasts. Panda (hillstream) loaches grow out of their juvenile prettiness. Adults are still attractive but not like juvies. Pangio "panda kuhli" is a different loach, different genus, different shape, similar name.

 

[f_luxus]

In german forums it's common to name fish by theire taxonomic names.

 

[GaryE]

In German, in French - I think English is the only language where these trade names seem so important. I'll be curious to see what the Chinese trade does.
In most other languages, you just learn a Latin word as a name for things and probably mispronounce it.
I think there's nothing wrong with using panda oranda. Oranda may be an old name for a linebred type, but it isn't a scientific name. Marketing names are fair game for marketers. It isn't a naturally occurring fish and using the "wrong name" doesn't muddy the waters for understanding its evolution. It's a product to start with.
I admit, it'll be confusing for fancy goldfish keepers, as well as to people who get in a stock of bamboo because they think they're getting a panda bear!

The quiet part out loud? Okay... Our culture has a problem. English likes trade names because it doesn't like acknowledging other languages. "They" are supposed to speak our language. A lot of English speakers refuse to learn other languages, and the dislike of Latin is rooted in those old attitudes.
My gut feeling from teaching international students is that Mandarin is like English in its cultural, imperial dislike of other languages, and that it will follow the trade name route. Since it's the future, then this hobby will have some beauties to figure out. I've had a tetra expert confirm that my "Imperial Lapis Tetras" are Hyphessobrycon melanostichos, but they came out of the Asian trade with just the lapis name, and are even listed online as Hyphessobrycon sp Imperial Lapis. The aquarium store couldn't even get the Latin name from the supplier.
In the meantime though, a goldfish variety gets a half recycled marketing name. If there's some kind of goldfish breed standard group for shows, they'll likely have to sort that out. At least the fish isn't as deformed and handicapped as some of the goldfish types. The marketing seems the least of the problems for me.

<An Oranda on the other hand, is a goldfish with a hood, in breeding terms. Accordingly, the cute pandas that we were finally able to import again are magpie-colored butterfly tails. But “Oranda Panda” sounds more catchy, don't you think? There is a difference between the technical language of breeders and the sales designation.>>
/QUOTE]
You can't beat catchy and cute. They are pretty powerful market forces. If the fancy form is already being supplied and sold as Oranda Pandas in the Asian trade, then I doubt Glaser has any stake in correcting it. We already have half the hobby wondering if a nasty solitary barb family type is really a shark.
I'm getting a lot of Facebook sites popping into my feed - obvious AI designed marketing clickbait. AI is having temporary difficulties pigeonholing me, but it knows I like tetras, and specifically pencilfish. I'm getting inundated with weird colour saturation photos and fantasy pencil photos with really spectacular names. Often, they're night-time colouration changes quickly doctored to change colours. I think we're about to enter an era where real and unreal are going to be harder to discern, and we'll have to drop out to learn.
Those of us into all this are going to have to speak two languages for our hobby - real names based on biology and natural history, and marketing.

 

[Magnum Man]

my dislike of latin, has nothing to do with the dislike of other languages ( I've tried to learn both German and Spanish ) and everything to do with, I'm not good with a 2nd or 3rd language, and fish scientific names are typically long, and hard to pronounce for me, as well as hard to remember...

 

[Innesfan]

The "Panda Orandas" on Asian lists--Chinese, Thai, Indonesian etc--are black and white Orandas with head growth. In other words, they are indeed Orandas. This corruption appears to be Glaser's marketing ploy.

The purpose of all naming and identification, whether it be scientific or 'popular,' is ideally so we can effectively communicate with each other. Naming something an Oranda, that is not, is not a means to that end. It would be akin to calling a new dark variety of Neon Tetra a Neon Molly or a new small variant of a Clown Barb a Clown Tetra. Someone who purchases something named Oranda rightfully expects a hood to develop. They'll be waiting a long time.

 

[GaryE]

The thing is, there's nothing stopping the trade from renaming a darker neon as a mollyeon. I can buy Least Killifish, which are livebearers, red tailed sharks (barbs), lampeye tetras (normani lampeyes), Kribensis (which are Pelvicachromis pulcher, with P. kribensis being a different fish) and so on.
I'm of the shrug and get used to it persuasion. The people here may understand the value of communication, and that's the value of Latin. I can talk fish with our German, French, Italian, Spanish, Vietnamese and other language friends if I use Latin names. It's always a pain to have to look up popular names, and in the case of a new one like my 'imperial lapis', to find several related but different species pictured under that name.
A fish can be misidentified, but this is intentional marketing. I agree, Glaser is too respected to be doing this, but this is done a lot.

The key thing with buying a panda oranda for your veranda is that as always, you can't trust the name and should be skeptical. It's a buyer beware market, as we all know.

my dislike of latin, has nothing to do with the dislike of other languages ( I've tried to learn both German and Spanish ) and everything to do with, I'm not good with a 2nd or 3rd language, and fish scientific names are typically long, and hard to pronounce for me, as well as hard to remember...

I'm an English speaker too, and Latin names are a little work. I have no desire to join the priesthood, so I'm not going to learn the language. But I'll say agenda, cull, facsimile, futile and other Latin words if they are the right word for what I want to communicate. When I was a religious little kid, I learned Latin based words like bible, scripture, etc, and thought nothing of that. The word you need is the word you learn, and the sharpest, most exact word for a fish species is going to be Latin. It lets me communicate with the universal church of fish nerds.

 

[gwand]

I’m all in on using Latin names. But for those less inclined it doesn’t help our cause that fish keep getting reassigned Latin names when their genus and species designation keep changing.

 

[Innesfan]

I’m all in on using Latin names. But for those less inclined it doesn’t help our cause that fish keep getting reassigned Latin names when their genus and species designation keep changing.

Agreed. But with all the new dna evidence, revisions will only increase in frequency and, I suspect, the number of species will multiply.

Fortunately, in this case, Glaser didn't mess with the Latin, Carassius auratus.