Salt Controversy Brackish Water

[grayshark1956]

Ok, I think I know you're thinking I write too much about this but, this time, I just read many opinions from many crab forums and people are still saying crabs need iodine. Now, I don't know anywhere that I can get the correct answer about crabs and brackish water and correct salt types. Its too controversial! I did read many complaints about WalMart's poorly managed pet dept. so I probably will not go there for any pets. But, the water thing has me bothered. Instant Ocean is sold in large quantities because people need it for large aquariums. Some say natural sea salt from grocery store without iodine is fine, others say buy aquarium salt. Now, without losing anymore sleep over this salt issue, how can I resolve this? I have 2 new crabs' lives at stake and want them to be happy and live. And maybe iodine is toxic, so I won't use that, but need to know exactly what kind of salt to buy! I might even postpone breakfast due to this one. I'll be on my computer at intervals today because I'm going to the petstore to buy plastic cholla thismorning when they open.

 

[DrRob]

For brackish water conditions, you're generally looking at low amounts of salt used for marine aquariums. People like nmonks are very well educated on this subject. They can be bought in quantities below the 25kg mark fairly easily and not for vast amounts of money.

For your particular tank my concern was, and still is, your other fish. I can't see cories and goldfish being happy as the tank moves brackish.

 

[iliveinazoo]

I used Red Sea Marine salt when i had mine, the Iodine reportedly helps when moulting, I never got round to buying any but it never seemed to be an issue. I ran my tank at SG1.010-SG1.015 which I believe is a lot higher than what you are running judging by your other posts, you may have to supplement additional calcium, magnesium and iodine at your lower levels but I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination.

That said I think that your Fiddlers might struggle anyway due to your low SG

 

[grayshark1956]

For brackish water conditions, you're generally looking at low amounts of salt used for marine aquariums. People like nmonks are very well educated on this subject. They can be bought in quantities below the 25kg mark fairly easily and not for vast amounts of money.

For your particular tank my concern was, and still is, your other fish. I can't see cories and goldfish being happy as the tank moves brackish.

Actually all fish are fine, now I'm calling around to locate a hygrometer. Can write again later today if I find one. Thanks

I used Red Sea Marine salt when i had mine, the Iodine reportedly helps when moulting, I never got round to buying any but it never seemed to be an issue. I ran my tank at SG1.010-SG1.015 which I believe is a lot higher than what you are running judging by your other posts, you may have to supplement additional calcium, magnesium and iodine at your lower levels but I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination.

That said I think that your Fiddlers might struggle anyway due to your low SG

Yep, you're right, I'm also going to get right salt plus a hygrometer today.

 

[nmonks]

Crabs and crustaceans generally benefit from iodine in their diet. So do fish, of course, and goitre-type problems in fish are not all that uncommon. But for crabs ands other crustaceans, an iodine supplement seems to make the difference between successful moults and failed moults (and these latter result in the deformity or death of the animal). In theory you can provide sufficient iodine through foods. Marine plants tends to be good, especially seaweed (e.g., Sushi Nori). You can also buy special crustacean foods pre-loaded with iodine, e.g., foods from JBL and Sera. Spirulina flake food should have some iodine in it, too. But if all else fails, providing iodine through the use of drops works wonders and is recommended by many experienced crab- and crayfish-keepers. Use at half the dose quoted on the bottle, so it's very economical.

Iodine in marine salt mix is helpful but not necessarily adequate. Even with reef tanks, marine aquarists routinely add iodine supplement.

Yes, you should use marine salt mix. If you have plain vanilla aquarium "tonic" salt, by all means use that up for now. Unlikely to cause any serious harm (especially if you provide iodine one way or another as mentioned above). But when that box runs out, upgrade to the real thing! You don't need a fancy brand, and the generic marine aquarium salts sold in places like Pet Co is fine.

Cheers, Neale

Ok, I think I know you're thinking I write too much about this but, this time, I just read many opinions from many crab forums and people are still saying crabs need iodine. Now, I don't know anywhere that I can get the correct answer about crabs and brackish water and correct salt types. Its too controversial! I did read many complaints about WalMart's poorly managed pet dept. so I probably will not go there for any pets. But, the water thing has me bothered. Instant Ocean is sold in large quantities because people need it for large aquariums. Some say natural sea salt from grocery store without iodine is fine, others say buy aquarium salt. Now, without losing anymore sleep over this salt issue, how can I resolve this? I have 2 new crabs' lives at stake and want them to be happy and live. And maybe iodine is toxic, so I won't use that, but need to know exactly what kind of salt to buy! I might even postpone breakfast due to this one. I'll be on my computer at intervals today because I'm going to the petstore to buy plastic cholla thismorning when they open.

 

[grayshark1956]

Crabs and crustaceans generally benefit from iodine in their diet. So do fish, of course, and goitre-type problems in fish are not all that uncommon. But for crabs ands other crustaceans, an iodine supplement seems to make the difference between successful moults and failed moults (and these latter result in the deformity or death of the animal). In theory you can provide sufficient iodine through foods. Marine plants tends to be good, especially seaweed (e.g., Sushi Nori). You can also buy special crustacean foods pre-loaded with iodine, e.g., foods from JBL and Sera. Spirulina flake food should have some iodine in it, too. But if all else fails, providing iodine through the use of drops works wonders and is recommended by many experienced crab- and crayfish-keepers. Use at half the dose quoted on the bottle, so it's very economical.

Iodine in marine salt mix is helpful but not necessarily adequate. Even with reef tanks, marine aquarists routinely add iodine supplement.

Yes, you should use marine salt mix. If you have plain vanilla aquarium "tonic" salt, by all means use that up for now. Unlikely to cause any serious harm (especially if you provide iodine one way or another as mentioned above). But when that box runs out, upgrade to the real thing! You don't need a fancy brand, and the generic marine aquarium salts sold in places like Pet Co is fine.

Cheers, Neale

Ok, I think I know you're thinking I write too much about this but, this time, I just read many opinions from many crab forums and people are still saying crabs need iodine. Now, I don't know anywhere that I can get the correct answer about crabs and brackish water and correct salt types. Its too controversial! I did read many complaints about WalMart's poorly managed pet dept. so I probably will not go there for any pets. But, the water thing has me bothered. Instant Ocean is sold in large quantities because people need it for large aquariums. Some say natural sea salt from grocery store without iodine is fine, others say buy aquarium salt. Now, without losing anymore sleep over this salt issue, how can I resolve this? I have 2 new crabs' lives at stake and want them to be happy and live. And maybe iodine is toxic, so I won't use that, but need to know exactly what kind of salt to buy! I might even postpone breakfast due to this one. I'll be on my computer at intervals today because I'm going to the petstore to buy plastic cholla thismorning when they open.

Thank you for writing, I agree about marine salt but everywhere I read says no iodine, I still have natural sea salt without iodine, could not find a hygrometer anywhere today, not even the hardware stores! I just read label from crab pellet food, it contains: fish and squid meal, krill meal, spirulina algae, calcium, riboflavin, thiamine, folic acid, niacin, zinc, copper, magnesium, etc. It even has carrot and red pepper in it, do these crabs like mexican food? LOL If iodine is safe, I'm not worried about having crab's TSH level checked, a vet would not stock Synthroid for a crab, but anyway, I finally found something to place on top of rock cave they can climb into and I'll put pellets there. I've spent so much time worrying about these crabs, let's say more than my own colonoscopy results, for example, LOL Oh, the plastic cholla was not only painted, it was too small of a diameter. But they LOVE the rocks! If you hear anymore about iodine, let me know, info is different in too many places, wouldn't iodine burn their eyes a little?

 

[grayshark1956]

I used Red Sea Marine salt when i had mine, the Iodine reportedly helps when moulting, I never got round to buying any but it never seemed to be an issue. I ran my tank at SG1.010-SG1.015 which I believe is a lot higher than what you are running judging by your other posts, you may have to supplement additional calcium, magnesium and iodine at your lower levels but I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination.

That said I think that your Fiddlers might struggle anyway due to your low SG

I agree, I need to look into that and I also wonder if ammonia levels are low, would they feel better or live longer? Wish I had looked for SG test kit, maybe they come in strips? Anything else you can think of I should check their water for? :unsure

 

[nmonks]

I think the problem here is our careless use of chemistry terms. Of course we are NOT talking about iodine; yes, that would be toxic. What we actually mean is iodide or iodate, both ions that make up some part of a mineral salt (such as potassium iodide or sodium iodide). Iodide is no more toxic than chloride, yet chlorine is of course deadly poisonous. So rather than getting too bogged down in whether or not iodine is toxic (it is) we should remember we're actually talking about a mineral salt that contains iodide or iodate.

It's commonly recommended that iodised cooking salt shouldn't be used in aquaria. While certainly a safe approach, there's some doubt as to whether the quantity of potassium iodide or sodium iodide in cooking salt is at sufficiently high concentration to cause harm to fish. It's definitely at a MUCH higher concentration than in seawater, but it's still a VERY SMALL amount. It's kind of like when someone says that a certain food doubles the risk of cancer. Sounds bad. But when you find out the risk of that cancer is extremely low, one in ten thousand say, then doubling that risk is still a very small risk. Same here: while cooking salt may contain more potassium iodide or sodium iodide than is "good" for fish, or for that matter crabs, the degree to which it can cause harm may well be minuscule and hardly worth bothering about compared to all the other things that can go wrong.

Bottom line, short-term, emergency use of cooking salt is unlikely to cause problems, iodised or not. But marine aquarium salt is better for lots of measurable reasons (such as pH stability and raised hardness) so there's no reason at all to use anything other than marine aquarium salt. As for "iodine", what we mean is supplying chemicals like potassium iodide or sodium iodide, and these can be properly provided through diet and/or "iodine" supplement.

Cheers, Neale

Thank you for writing, I agree about marine salt but everywhere I read says no iodine, I still have natural sea salt without iodine,

 

[grayshark1956]

I think the problem here is our careless use of chemistry terms. Of course we are NOT talking about iodine; yes, that would be toxic. What we actually mean is iodide or iodate, both ions that make up some part of a mineral salt (such as potassium iodide or sodium iodide). Iodide is no more toxic than chloride, yet chlorine is of course deadly poisonous. So rather than getting too bogged down in whether or not iodine is toxic (it is) we should remember we're actually talking about a mineral salt that contains iodide or iodate.

It's commonly recommended that iodised cooking salt shouldn't be used in aquaria. While certainly a safe approach, there's some doubt as to whether the quantity of potassium iodide or sodium iodide in cooking salt is at sufficiently high concentration to cause harm to fish. It's definitely at a MUCH higher concentration than in seawater, but it's still a VERY SMALL amount. It's kind of like when someone says that a certain food doubles the risk of cancer. Sounds bad. But when you find out the risk of that cancer is extremely low, one in ten thousand say, then doubling that risk is still a very small risk. Same here: while cooking salt may contain more potassium iodide or sodium iodide than is "good" for fish, or for that matter crabs, the degree to which it can cause harm may well be minuscule and hardly worth bothering about compared to all the other things that can go wrong.

Bottom line, short-term, emergency use of cooking salt is unlikely to cause problems, iodised or not. But marine aquarium salt is better for lots of measurable reasons (such as pH stability and raised hardness) so there's no reason at all to use anything other than marine aquarium salt. As for "iodine", what we mean is supplying chemicals like potassium iodide or sodium iodide, and these can be properly provided through diet and/or "iodine" supplement.

Cheers, Neale

Thank you for writing, I agree about marine salt but everywhere I read says no iodine, I still have natural sea salt without iodine,

I understand better from what you sent, I checked and for example Morton's salt contains: 2300 mg sodium, 2700 mg chloride, 300 mcg iodide. I see what you mean, it would be nice if my daughter, the chemist, would explain this but she's too busy, so I have to teach myself. So, apparently iodine or iodide won't hurt fish and crabs. Well, all I have is natural sea salt and next trip in the car will require looking for marine salt. Thanks for letting me know. I still want to review ammonia where it concerns fish and crabs, I removed my goldfish, they can't tolerate salt well, will observe other fish and won't be adding salt for a while, I need to test my water, too.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

For brackish water conditions, you're generally looking at low amounts of salt used for marine aquariums. People like nmonks are very well educated on this subject. They can be bought in quantities below the 25kg mark fairly easily and not for vast amounts of money.

For your particular tank my concern was, and still is, your other fish. I can't see cories and goldfish being happy as the tank moves brackish.

I completely agree. I have cories and salt can actually harm scaleless fish such as plecos and cories. I don't know how a goldfish would thrive in a slated tank, but I know the cories wouldn suffer. I understand that you are worried about the lives of your crabs, but at the same time, you need to think about the lives and well being of the fish you have as well. It may be in your benefit to purchase a separate tank for your crabs.

 

[nmonks]

Goldfish actually have quite a high tolerance for brackish water. Feral goldfish can tolerate over 25% normal seawater salinity! It probably isn't good for delicate fancy varieties, and the feral ones might not actually like it much, but the use of salt to medicate goldfish is actually one of the safest ways to treat them.

As for Corydoras, salt at low doses (as used to treat whitespot) won't do them any harm, and the fact they're scaleless is a bit of a red herring (there are plenty of marine fish without scales!) but they certainly won't survive long in truly brackish conditions. Crabs and fish don't mix, end of story, and Red Claw Crabs really do need a higher salinity than freshwater fish (like Corydoras) will tolerate.

Cheers, Neale

I completely agree. I have cories and salt can actually harm scaleless fish such as plecos and cories. I don't know how a goldfish would thrive in a slated tank, but I know the cories wouldn suffer. I understand that you are worried about the lives of your crabs, but at the same time, you need to think about the lives and well being of the fish you have as well. It may be in your benefit to purchase a separate tank for your crabs.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

Goldfish actually have quite a high tolerance for brackish water. Feral goldfish can tolerate over 25% normal seawater salinity! It probably isn't good for delicate fancy varieties, and the feral ones might not actually like it much, but the use of salt to medicate goldfish is actually one of the safest ways to treat them.

As for Corydoras, salt at low doses (as used to treat whitespot) won't do them any harm, and the fact they're scaleless is a bit of a red herring (there are plenty of marine fish without scales!) but they certainly won't survive long in truly brackish conditions. Crabs and fish don't mix, end of story, and Red Claw Crabs really do need a higher salinity than freshwater fish (like Corydoras) will tolerate.

Cheers, Neale

I completely agree. I have cories and salt can actually harm scaleless fish such as plecos and cories. I don't know how a goldfish would thrive in a slated tank, but I know the cories wouldn suffer. I understand that you are worried about the lives of your crabs, but at the same time, you need to think about the lives and well being of the fish you have as well. It may be in your benefit to purchase a separate tank for your crabs.

I've never used salt for whitespot treatment with cories, but its good to know that it can be done. I was always told that was a no-no lol. Thanks for that information

 

[grayshark1956]

Goldfish actually have quite a high tolerance for brackish water. Feral goldfish can tolerate over 25% normal seawater salinity! It probably isn't good for delicate fancy varieties, and the feral ones might not actually like it much, but the use of salt to medicate goldfish is actually one of the safest ways to treat them.

As for Corydoras, salt at low doses (as used to treat whitespot) won't do them any harm, and the fact they're scaleless is a bit of a red herring (there are plenty of marine fish without scales!) but they certainly won't survive long in truly brackish conditions. Crabs and fish don't mix, end of story, and Red Claw Crabs really do need a higher salinity than freshwater fish (like Corydoras) will tolerate.

Cheers, Neale

I completely agree. I have cories and salt can actually harm scaleless fish such as plecos and cories. I don't know how a goldfish would thrive in a slated tank, but I know the cories wouldn suffer. I understand that you are worried about the lives of your crabs, but at the same time, you need to think about the lives and well being of the fish you have as well. It may be in your benefit to purchase a separate tank for your crabs.

I've never used salt for whitespot treatment with cories, but its good to know that it can be done. I was always told that was a no-no lol. Thanks for that information

Well, I don't like mixing fish with brackish water either but I did not know crabs were so very different, store did not explain them that well. My tank may be temporary until I get thru this coming week, maybe I'll get another aquarium, don't know yet. I'm doing the best I can for now until I can change it later. My research and questions have really helped alot! Thanks for writing.

 

[raptorrex]

adding iodine, as opposed to iodide or iodate, to an invert tank. will, or may, cause a mass moult.

it will also cause an Axolotl to mature into a Salamander. (not really relevant, but interesting)

 

[iliveinazoo]

I used Red Sea Marine salt when i had mine, the Iodine reportedly helps when moulting, I never got round to buying any but it never seemed to be an issue. I ran my tank at SG1.010-SG1.015 which I believe is a lot higher than what you are running judging by your other posts, you may have to supplement additional calcium, magnesium and iodine at your lower levels but I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination.

That said I think that your Fiddlers might struggle anyway due to your low SG

I agree, I need to look into that and I also wonder if ammonia levels are low, would they feel better or live longer? Wish I had looked for SG test kit, maybe they come in strips? Anything else you can think of I should check their water for? :unsure

Ammonia is a no-no, it should be zero. SG test kit is basically a hydrometer, you pour water into it and it tells you what SG you have. But remember that SG varies with temperature, there are more expensive hydrometers out there that will measure salinity at the particular temperature of your tank.