Royal Gramma Behavior

[Droma]

Hey everyone. Within the last 24 hours my gramma has been hiding constantly. This of course means that he isnt eating. Now I know that grammas will often hide for several minutes, even an hour at a time but usually are out and about by then. However, for the last 12 hours I have seen nothing of him except when I got in the tank and moved some rock around to look for him, then he darted out. As soon as the rock was back in place though, back he went and has yet to come out again. My water quality is good. (ph good, nitrite and ammonia nothing and nitrate is around 20-40 which I have been told is acceptable for saltwater). However, I have had a cleaner shrimp and a damsel die within the last 3 weeks but water quality has stayed the same and the fish arent showing signs of anything like ick. Just wanted some thoughts on what might be going on. Yesterday he was out and about like normal but I know things can change fast especially in a 20 gallon tank. Thanks for any input.

 

[seffieuk]

Droma

Hey everyone. Within the last 24 hours my gramma has been hiding constantly.

How long have you had him and what is the rest of your stock?

This of course means that he isnt eating. Now I know that grammas will often hide for several minutes, even an hour at a time but usually are out and about by then. However, for the last 12 hours I have seen nothing of him except when I got in the tank and moved some rock around to look for him, then he darted out. As soon as the rock was back in place though, back he went and has yet to come out again.

Try to keep your hands out of the water for the moment

My water quality is good. (ph good, nitrite and ammonia nothing and nitrate is around 20-40 which I have been told is acceptable for saltwater).

Can you post your stats here please

However, I have had a cleaner shrimp and a damsel die within the last 3 weeks but water quality has stayed the same and the fish arent showing signs of anything like ick. Just wanted some thoughts on what might be going on. Yesterday he was out and about like normal but I know things can change fast especially in a 20 gallon tank. Thanks for any input.

they can indeed, lets see your stats, please

Seffie x

 

[xxBarneyxx]

Welcome

First as there have been deaths in the tank get your water tested with a different test kit to make sure. If you can post your full water stats (SG, Temp, PH, etc, etc) it will help.

As Seffie said how long has it been in the tank and what else do you have in there? Also have there been any new additions to the tank recently?

I would be inclined to say not to worry too much. My Royal Gramma is a bit the same, some days he is out constantly, other days I will only see him for a few minutes a day.

 

[Droma]

Bah...doesn't matter much now. Found him dead this morning, was stuck in a rock. I also had a cleaner shrimp and a tellow tail blue damsel that both died but I dont think they were getting food because the gramma and 2 clowns are hardy eaters. Right now my tank has the 2 clowns a small anemone and a soft polyp coral. Here are some stats

SG-1.022
Temp-78-80
Ph-@8
Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-20

I dont think these results merit any concern about water quality (results have always been around what is shown here) and if the tank had something like ick I would know it I think. I think the shrimp and damsel just starved and the gramma got stuck and couldnt get out of a rock. As far as new additions I put a lemon peel angel in a couple of weeks ago after the shrimp and damsel had been gone for a while but he died too. I think the clowns beat him up...one night he looked fine and the next morning he looked like hell and I knew he was dying. I might just try a pretty good size fiji damsel as they are pretty hardy..and cheap.

 

[seffieuk]

Bah...doesn't matter much now. Found him dead this morning, was stuck in a rock.

thats a real shame, I doubt if he got stuck, probably hid there and died

I also had a cleaner shrimp and a tellow tail blue damsel that both died but I dont think they were getting food because the gramma and 2 clowns are hardy eaters.

that seems unlikely - although the clowns would not have liked the damsel, so I suppose they may have stopped him from eating

Right now my tank has the 2 clowns a small anemone and a soft polyp coral. Here are some stats

What sort of nem is it and how does it look? Do you hae any snails or hermits, how do they look?

SG-1.022
Temp-78-80
Ph-@8
Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-20

SG needs to be raised slowly to 1.026 - but this would not account for the deaths of the fish

I dont think these results merit any concern about water quality (results have always been around what is shown here)

What test kits are you using? Could you go get a second opinion from your lfs (get them to test the water)?

and if the tank had something like ick I would know it I think.

yes i agree

I think the shrimp and damsel just starved and the gramma got stuck and couldnt get out of a rock.

I doubt that

As far as new additions I put a lemon peel angel in a couple of weeks ago after the shrimp and damsel had been gone for a while but he died too.

I really think you should not put anything else in at till we have sorted out what the problem is, but i bet you have already come to that conclusion

I think the clowns beat him up...one night he looked fine and the next morning he looked like hell and I knew he was dying.

That is unlikely

I might just try a pretty good size fiji damsel as they are pretty hardy..and cheap.

Please don't

So, think first port of call is the lfs to test your water
how often do you do a water change out of interest and what are you using for the change?
how long has the tank been set-up?
what are the corals you mentioned?
do you have a lot of algae?
are you running a phospate remover?
can you ask the lfs to do all tests please and tell us your results - don't be tempted to buy a fish because they say it is ok (ask them to write down the results and post them on here for us please)

Seffie x

 

[Droma]

Seffie:
I did in fact go to the lfs and the only difference they got was that my nitrates were around 50 rather than the 20-30 I thought. I just did a 3 gallon change now and will do another 3 gallon change in 5 days. But still I dont think even 50ppm on nitrate is terrible. Getting high but its nothing like 80 or 100.

Ok so you say the shrimp and damsel didnt likely starve and the gramma didnt likely get stuck in a rock. Lets assume your right. Then what is it? Nitrites and ammonia are the most lethal things as far as water quality and they were both at 0 on both mine and the lfs tests. Now granted I may have misread my nitrate test and concluded it was 20-30 rather than 50 but still unless your nitrate reading are like dark orange or red it shouldnt be lethal to the fish. Am I wrong? A salinity of .020 isnt going to kill the fish and honestly I feel like .026 is high. Also, does the brand of test kit really matter? I use API but it shouldnt matter... I just dont see how a test kit could get tainted but I suppose its possible.

Concerning water changes, I have generally been doing 2 gallons every 10 days. I probably should alter this to 2 gallons every week or 4 gallons every 2 weeks.(its a 20 gallon tank). I use purified drinking water that is treated by RO.

The tank has been set up for roughly 2.5 months.
I'm not sure exactly what the coral is. A zoanthid of some kind I believe. Both the coral and anemone look fine.
Concerning algae, no I dont think I have a lot but then again "a lot" is a vague term.
Negative on the phosphate remover. Where would the phosphate come from?
The lfs seemed to think the only point of concern was that the nitrates were a little high...thats it.

 

[milkton]

Seffie:
I did in fact go to the lfs and the only difference they got was that my nitrates were around 50 rather than the 20-30 I thought. I just did a 3 gallon change now and will do another 3 gallon change in 5 days. But still I dont think even 50ppm on nitrate is terrible. Getting high but its nothing like 80 or 100.

Ok so you say the shrimp and damsel didnt likely starve and the gramma didnt likely get stuck in a rock. Lets assume your right. Then what is it? Nitrites and ammonia are the most lethal things as far as water quality and they were both at 0 on both mine and the lfs tests. Now granted I may have misread my nitrate test and concluded it was 20-30 rather than 50 but still unless your nitrate reading are like dark orange or red it shouldnt be lethal to the fish. Am I wrong? A salinity of .020 isnt going to kill the fish and honestly I feel like .026 is high. Also, does the brand of test kit really matter? I use API but it shouldnt matter... I just dont see how a test kit could get tainted but I suppose its possible.

Concerning water changes, I have generally been doing 2 gallons every 10 days. I probably should alter this to 2 gallons every week or 4 gallons every 2 weeks.(its a 20 gallon tank). I use purified drinking water that is treated by RO.

The tank has been set up for roughly 2.5 months.
I'm not sure exactly what the coral is. A zoanthid of some kind I believe. Both the coral and anemone look fine.
Concerning algae, no I dont think I have a lot but then again "a lot" is a vague term.
Negative on the phosphate remover. Where would the phosphate come from?
The lfs seemed to think the only point of concern was that the nitrates were a little high...thats it.

phosphates can come from tap water. but considering u have an RO, that shouldnt be the case.
the royal gramma u purchased may have been one of those fish that do poorly in captivity, therefor hiding all the time and not getting the nutrients it needs.
there could be alot of factors leading to the gramma's death, but most arent usually the reason why it died.
do you acclimatise fish? if not that may be the reason. also, sorry if i misread, (if i did) but do u leave a period of time between each addition of fish/inverts? (eg. a week or 2)
one thing im with you is the fact that ppl care too much about the brands of the test kits. i mean, they should all work perfectly well, unless they are expired.

 

[seffieuk]

Seffie:
I did in fact go to the lfs and the only difference they got was that my nitrates were around 50 rather than the 20-30 I thought. I just did a 3 gallon change now and will do another 3 gallon change in 5 days. But still I dont think even 50ppm on nitrate is terrible. Getting high but its nothing like 80 or 100.

Excellent - what were the phosphate, alk results?

Ok so you say the shrimp and damsel didnt likely starve and the gramma didnt likely get stuck in a rock. Lets assume your right. Then what is it?

Could be many things - we do not yet have all your tank stats?


Nitrites and ammonia are the most lethal things as far as water quality and they were both at 0 on both mine and the lfs tests.

yes they can be lethatl - but not in your case obviously

Now granted I may have misread my nitrate test and concluded it was 20-30 rather than 50 but still unless your nitrate reading are like dark orange or red it shouldnt be lethal to the fish.

No that fugure would not kill your fish but it be kill the shrimp if it was like it for a long time

Am I wrong? A salinity of .020 isnt going to kill the fish and honestly I feel like .026 is high.

1.020 is ok for fish but not corals or the nem, both of them need 1.026

Also, does the brand of test kit really matter? I use API but it shouldnt matter... I just dont see how a test kit could get tainted but I suppose its possible.

Yes, reliablity

Concerning water changes, I have generally been doing 2 gallons every 10 days. I probably should alter this to 2 gallons every week or 4 gallons every 2 weeks.(its a 20 gallon tank). I use purified drinking water that is treated by RO.

I would do 25% every week but many would do 20%

The tank has been set up for roughly 2.5 months.

Ok, so a very short time to have added so many fish and allowed a cycle

I'm not sure exactly what the coral is. A zoanthid of some kind I believe. Both the coral and anemone look fine.

They will not long term though what anemone is it - they really shouldnt be in a tank less than six months old

Concerning algae, no I dont think I have a lot but then again "a lot" is a vague term.

If you have a lot of algae it could be using the phosphate so giving a false low reading

Negative on the phosphate remover. Where would the phosphate come from?

The water, food etc

The lfs seemed to think the only point of concern was that the nitrates were a little high...thats it.

Well, what were the results of the other main test? - Please remember that we are only trying to help, we have nothing to sell or gain except your stock being healthy

Seffie x

ps it would be lovely to see a photo of your tank

 

[Droma]

Thanks much for your help all, especially Seffie I didn't intend to come off as ungrateful, has just been a tough week and I have had several bad experiences with saltwater over the years and just hate losing fish (but I just can't stand freshwater fish). Primarily my problems have involved me not doing enough research and putting fish in my tanks that were either just too big or had no business being in there for some reason.

Concerning the anemone and coral, yeah I know now I guess they need .026 so I will build that up over the next couple weeks I think its at .022-.023 now. I didn't realize they were for advanced, established tanks so all I can do is get the salinity up, cross my fingers and hope they make it. I doubt I will put any more corals or inverts into the tank but they have a good light (its a 50/50 light that can support a small amount of coral life). I feed them 1-2 times a week and they seem to be thriving. The coral blooms everyday for long periods of time and the anemone (its a white long tentacled) has moved around quite a bit.

As far as the tank not being cycled, I think I did it right this time. It was a smaller tank (20 gallons) and I had 12 pounds of live rock in there from the beginning with live sand as a substrate. The tank cycled very quickly but I still waited like 2.5 weeks and was getting the same results (no nitrite and no ammonia). I could only assume a tank that size had cycled. Now there is about 20 pounds of live rock in the tank. From most people I have talked to smaller tanks with good amounts of live sand and rock cycle fast.

I will change my water changing mode to 4 gallons every week; I think 2 gallons every 10 days just wasn't enough.

Once the nitrates go down I will think about maybe putting one more fish in there but honestly I think I just want the 2 clowns (assuming they live) and one other. I'm guessing a damsel is a bad choice? What about a mandarin? Or coral beauty?

 

[seffieuk]

Thanks much for your help all, especially Seffie I didn't intend to come off as ungrateful, has just been a tough week and I have had several bad experiences with saltwater over the years and just hate losing fish (but I just can't stand freshwater fish). Primarily my problems have involved me not doing enough research and putting fish in my tanks that were either just too big or had no business being in there for some reason.

We have all been there - bad weeks in fish keeping, can be very bad indeed

Concerning the anemone and coral, yeah I know now I guess they need .026 so I will build that up over the next couple weeks I think its at .022-.023 now. I didn't realize they were for advanced, established tanks so all I can do is get the salinity up, cross my fingers and hope they make it.

Excellent - would you mind posting us a picture of the nem, so we can see what sort it is - many require very high levels of light and go white (bleach) when they are not getting enough!


I doubt I will put any more corals or inverts into the tank but they have a good light (its a 50/50 light that can support a small amount of coral life).

What sort of light - T5 or T8?

I feed them 1-2 times a week and they seem to be thriving.

Excellent - what are you feeding the nem?

The coral blooms everyday for long periods of time and the anemone (its a white long tentacled) has moved around quite a bit.

nems move when they are unhappy, they are searching for a better place to put their foot

As far as the tank not being cycled, I think I did it right this time. It was a smaller tank (20 gallons) and I had 12 pounds of live rock in there from the beginning with live sand as a substrate.

Great

The tank cycled very quickly but I still waited like 2.5 weeks and was getting the same results (no nitrite and no ammonia).

Excellent and I hope Nitrates <10

I could only assume a tank that size had cycled. Now there is about 20 pounds of live rock in the tank. From most people I have talked to smaller tanks with good amounts of live sand and rock cycle fast.

They will cycle fast if the live rock is well cured and not out of water long - do I assume from your statement that you added extra live rock? if so, this may be the cause of your deaths, you would have had a mini cycle

I will change my water changing mode to 4 gallons every week; I think 2 gallons every 10 days just wasn't enough.

I agree

Once the nitrates go down I will think about maybe putting one more fish in there but honestly I think I just want the 2 clowns (assuming they live) and one other. I'm guessing a damsel is a bad choice? What about a mandarin? Or coral beauty?

Ok, 20 gallon tank and two clowns, everyone knows what I think about that - but you have them now so lets keep them alive don't put anything else in there, fish or invertibrate wise until everything is more stable. If it were me I would leave it 28 days to be sure. A mandy is do-able if you are prepared to set-up a pod culture, its very easy to do and you could concentrate on that whilst waiting for your tank to stabalise. However you need to have been feeding the tank every three days with copepods for lets say approx a month (so thats two months) - then look for a small, fat mandy. The beauty is out of the question, sorry. You would be better off with a small goby rather than either the mandy or the CB - if it were me, I would learn from this tank and then in the future get a bigger tank for the mandy, Mandys really need 90lbs of live rock to be healthy. I hope I don't sound negative, I don't mean to and sounds to me like you now are really on your way to becoming a salty

All the best

Seffie x

 

[Droma]

The anemone has always been white. I can try to post some pics but not sure if I'll have the time to get around to it as I don't have a digital camera.

As far as the light I think it's a T3 with about 6500k of light.

Can't remember off hand what the nem food is (not at my apartment right now) you basically add like 40 drops of it a couple times a week.

You're right on the live rock. I added 8-9 pounds about 5-6 weeks after initial set up. You may be right about the mini cycle but the new rock was in there a long time before I saw any fish deaths.

What's wrong with 2 clowns in a 20 gallon? I see it all the time. However, since I don't like gobies and damsels seem to be an unwise choice I may well just leave the tank as it is now with 2 clowns the anemone and the coral. It looks really good so I may just lave well enough alone.

 

[seffieuk]

The anemone has always been white. I can try to post some pics but not sure if I'll have the time to get around to it as I don't have a digital camera.

As far as the light I think it's a T3 with about 6500k of light.

Never heard of t3

Can't remember off hand what the nem food is (not at my apartment right now) you basically add like 40 drops of it a couple times a week.

The nem needs food like prawns (uncooked) and small fish (you buy them frozen from lfs). feed once a week

You're right on the live rock. I added 8-9 pounds about 5-6 weeks after initial set up. You may be right about the mini cycle but the new rock was in there a long time before I saw any fish deaths.

Oh well, hopefully things will go well now

What's wrong with 2 clowns in a 20 gallon? I see it all the time.

Indeed you do as do I, and many people say that 20 gallons is the smallest tank you should keep a pair of clowns in - however I like to see them in tanks of 25 gallons and more but its just MO :unsure:

However, since I don't like gobies and damsels seem to be an unwise choice I may well just leave the tank as it is now with 2 clowns the anemone and the coral. It looks really good so I may just lave well enough alone.

Good choice - then maybe later after about a month of stability you can think about how you are going to develop your tank

ATB Seffie x