Removal Of Ammonia In A Tank Through Chemical Means

[fry_lover]

I was wondering if i was along the right lines with this (scientifically) but i dont think this would merit a thread on the Science Forum? So Tropical Chat will do

Filtration "aids" such as Seachem Purigen, API Nitrazorb and Polyfilter (or any in-tank ammonia remover that doesnt rely on bacteria) may well reduce nitrate in the tank, simply by removing ammonia at the "source" so to speak.

I know this springs a counter-argument that such things perhaps deplete the natural level of denitrifying bacteria due to robbing them off the food source (ammonia)

However, in terms of lowering nitrate in a tank, i guess it makes sense to stop (some) of the nitrate from forming in the first place?

This is information on how Seachem Purigen is supposed to work to highlight my point

Purigen is a premium synthetic adsorbent that is unlike any other filtration product. It is not a mixture of ion exchangers or adsorbents, but a unique macro-porous synthetic polymer that removes soluble and insoluble impurities from water at a rate and capacity that exceeds all others by over 500%. Purigen controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds

So, does it follow that nitrate "control" is not actually the products removing nitrate, simply interupting the process by which nitrate is formed?

 

[rdd1952]

My thoughts on those products is that they leave you vulnerable to problems later on. All of them need to be recharged or replaced.

Purigen, for instance, says that it has to be soaked in bleach for 24 hours and then to rinse and soak for 8 hours in a dechlorinator to kill the bleach. It doesn't mentiion how long it takes to beome saturated (or how much it is supposed to absorb).

Nitro Zorb says it can remove 5 ppm of ammonia, 1 ppm of nitrite and 20 ppm of nitrate in 24-48 hours and can be rechargeed in 2 hours in a salt mixture.

I couldn't find any info on Polyfilter that went into how it worked or how often it had to be replaced or recharged.

The biggest problem I see wiht these products is knowing when to replace/recharge them and the fact that you will become dependent on them. Once they are fully saturated, the ammonia will begin to build as you will have no biological filter (bacteria) to process it. It seems to me that using them would mean you would have to test your tank everyday for ammonia at least. Basically, once you start using them, you are dependent from then on. If you suddenly decide you don't want to use them any more or can't find them, you are stuck with a fully stocked, uncycled tank.

If I were going to get into chemicals to handle nitrate, I would be more tempted to go with soome product that handles nitrate only rather than messing with the bological filtration process. But IMO, there's still no substitute for water changes. I realize this doesn't help in an area like London (a lot of the UK) where high nitrate in the tap water is normal. But with regular weekly water changes in a sensibly stocked tank, nitrate levels in even an unplanted tank aren't likely to rise more than 10 to maybe 20 ppm in a week. If people aren't into weekly water changes and won't to go longer, my best advicce is to stock ightly and the nitrate won't be a problem.

 

[fry_lover]

very good points about the dependency situation Bob, it does concern me if i were to go down this route, and its a big "if"

However, the effect they have on the biological filter is probably yet to be established? not sure? i guess it depends on how effective the chemical filtration is and how quickly is consumes the ammonia, does it completely or partially out-compete the traditional biological filter if placed side by side? I am not asking you directly, just throwing it out there.

We know, that if a tank has one mature filter running, and we add a 2nd filter, that does not make the original filter redundant (dead)does it?

I am just wondering how much of an impact something like Purigen actually has on the biological media. I know, logically, its less "food" for the nitryfying bacteria, therefore thats potentially not good for the old biological filter....

I say "potentially" not good for the bioligical filter...because it might be fine with less ammonia to deal with (even after the Purigen is removed)

But like you say, i wouldnt like to run on Purigen for 3 months, then decide i cant afford it and risk having a mini cycle.

A good thing i guess, would be to do an experiment, add Purigen to a tank for as while, let it exhaust itself and then dont recharge it, remove it and test daily for ammonia and nitrite with the tank just running on its existing / mature bio filter.

sub-plot
Has it been established that the ammount of nitrifying bacteria in a mature filter is the corresponding "size" or "amount" to handle that specific bio load?

i.e. if i had x20 10cm fish in a tank with 0 Ammonia and 0 Nitrite and i took 10 fish out, and left the tank running for 4-weeks, then put the 10 fish back, would the filters not cope 100% ?

For example, an Obese person who eats 10x Doughnuts and 2x extra large Pizza's a day and 2 half-pound hamburgers....... if we took away x5 Doughnuts and x1 pizza, the obese person will not suffer (physically) because of that, because she doesnt need the extra doughnuts and pizza to function. If we took away everything and that was there whole food source, then obviously they would suffer.
(i am not sure the above obese peep example makes sense or adds to this thread, but i'll leave in there!!!)

I guess what i am saying, is the impact and dependency that something like Purigen may create, is dependent on how much of the "spoils" it takes in terms of the ammonia. I wonder if the company's have that kind of information, and if they did, would they disclose?

 

[rdd1952]

I think the key thing to consider is that at any time, there is only enough bacteria pesent to handle the ammonia the fish can produce. Adding one of those items for a few days probably wouldn't have an advers effect on the biological filter. But the longer they run, the more bacteria you will lose.

Just as an example, say it takes 1 million bacteria to handle the fish load of the fish you have. You install Purigen (or what ever product) and it starts absorbing half of the ammonia each day. After 1 day, that would mean there wa only enough ammonia to feed half the bacteria so you would start to see a die off. After 2 days, the Purigen would have removed half again so now thre is only enough food for 250,000 bacteria, etc. Obviously, this is an over-simplification but you can see the point I'm getting at. After a while most of the bacteria would have died off from lack of a food source. It would probably actually be quicker in the beginning as when you first added the product, it would be new and have an unlimited ability to absorb so the first day it is in the tank, it would most likely take up most of the ammonia in the tank. I'm sure placement in the filter would have an effect too. That is if the Purigen was the last thing the water passed through versus the first.

It would indeed be interesting to see how that worked. I have a 5 gallon currently set up as a q-tank. As soon as I get the last fish I want, probably in the next couple weeks, I may try to get some Purigen and test it. I will know that the tank is cycled so if I run that stuff for a month and then the tank won't process ammonia, I would know that the bacteria was gone. And if the companies have that info, I doubt they would offer it. After all, it may not be in their best interest for us to know that after a week or month, the bacteria colony will no longer have a food source.

 

[fry_lover]

If i go down the Purigen route, i will do the experiment and post on here, i have 3 tanks, so i will try it on one and i have plenty of mature bioloigical filter media in case the tank has a cycle or mini cycle after i remove the purigen.

if i go down this route, i am just curious right now

 

[part-timer]

I think the major concern with this kind of product is that they give a false sense of security. They address the problem, but not the cause. Whilst they may describe themselves as 'removing' rather than 'locking away' ammonia etc, saturation must surely take over eventually unless there is regular water changes and top-ups (the water changes themselves obviously would also dilute the pollutants so potentially defeating the need for the additive?). Also, what are the pollutants being converted into? Even the by-product (which unless is helpful to fish/plants) would eventually need to be removed via water changes which again also dilute the pollutant itself??? Just can't figure out the purpose of these products other than a quick and immediate fix.

Running a 2nd filter won't make either redundant - the bacteria required to process ammonia will balance according to each filters workload - it can only feed off what food its given but the needed bacteria will still be present. Thats how many set-up feeder media for new tanks - once the bacteria is present it can fairly rapidly increase to match any increase in required workload.

 

[Dave Spencer]

No offence fry lover, but there is nothing particularly new going on here.

Starting up high light, high growth planted tanks with a filter containing Purigen and Zeolite is becoming more and more popular. Due to the efficiency of plants in removing ammonia from the water column, the bacteria colonies run at lower numbers than fish only tanks anyway, so there is less of a risk being taken in this instance.

I use Purigen and Zeolite on all my tanks now, with excellent results, especially on brand new tanks when they are most susceptible to algae. The glass stays clear for weeks on end without needing a clean, and the water is crystal clear. At water change time, the water coming out of the tank is clearer than that going in.

I do regenerate the Purigen, but the Zeolite I allow to deplete, and don`t bother to replace it. Bacteria will colonize the large surface area it has, and feed off the ammonia. I have seen no evidence of the ammonia making its way back in to the water column. The Zeolite is purely there to deprive algae of ammonia.

High growth planted tank + Purigen + Zeolite = Sparkling clean tank + no cycle + adding fish practically straight away.

In this instance, these products are not being used to address an ammonia problem, but to prevent early algae issues and give crystal clear water.

Dave.

 

[fry_lover]

No offence fry lover, but there is nothing particularly new going on here.

Starting up high light, high growth planted tanks with a filter containing Purigen and Zeolite is becoming more and more popular. Due to the efficiency of plants in removing ammonia from the water column, the bacteria colonies run at lower numbers than fish only tanks anyway, so there is less of a risk being taken in this instance.

I use Purigen and Zeolite on all my tanks now, with excellent results, especially on brand new tanks when they are most susceptible to algae. The glass stays clear for weeks on end without needing a clean, and the water is crystal clear. At water change time, the water coming out of the tank is clearer than that going in.

I do regenerate the Purigen, but the Zeolite I allow to deplete, and don`t bother to replace it. Bacteria will colonize the large surface area it has, and feed off the ammonia. I have seen no evidence of the ammonia making its way back in to the water column. The Zeolite is purely there to deprive algae of ammonia.

High growth planted tank + Purigen + Zeolite = Sparkling clean tank + no cycle + adding fish practically straight away.

In this instance, these products are not being used to address an ammonia problem, but to prevent early algae issues and give crystal clear water.

Dave.

Hello Dave

Thanks for detailed response, interesting reading.

I actually was thinking Purigen wouldn't be any good for my planted tank (its massively planted) because it might remove all the "food" the plants use? I know it claims to not remove trace elements, but one of the reasons i think my planted tank is successful might be because of the high stocking levels and the ammonia available for the plants. Do you not think the Purigen will be a risk to my planted tank then at all?

How often are you re-charging the Purigen Dave? And how long are you soaking it in dechlorinator afterwards?

cheers

 

[raptorrex]

sub-plot
Has it been established that the ammount of nitrifying bacteria in a mature filter is the corresponding "size" or "amount" to handle that specific bio load?

i.e. if i had x20 10cm fish in a tank with 0 Ammonia and 0 Nitrite and i took 10 fish out, and left the tank running for 4-weeks, then put the 10 fish back, would the filters not cope 100% ?

For example, an Obese person who eats 10x Doughnuts and 2x extra large Pizza's a day and 2 half-pound hamburgers....... if we took away x5 Doughnuts and x1 pizza, the obese person will not suffer (physically) because of that, because she doesnt need the extra doughnuts and pizza to function. If we took away everything and that was there whole food source, then obviously they would suffer.
(i am not sure the above obese peep example makes sense or adds to this thread, but i'll leave in there!!!)

I guess what i am saying, is the impact and dependency that something like Purigen may create, is dependent on how much of the "spoils" it takes in terms of the ammonia. I wonder if the company's have that kind of information, and if they did, would they disclose?

not sure if anyone has done a scientific study, but i think the link between, bio load and colony size, is well indicated, imho. perhaps shown best in the difference between a fish and a fishless cycle. as rdd1952 reminded me some time ago, with a fish cycle, you need to add fish slowly, allowing the colony to increase before adding the next. with the fishless type all the fish can be added from the end of the cycle. this difference is simply down to the sheer amount of ammonia used in the fishless technique, forcing a large colony to grow. you can of course keep up your colony by overfeeding, and allowing the extra to break down to feed you it, but i cant help feeling that may be counter productive.

this is a problem that vexes me. the potential of many of the "new" media, looks clear. but until they can deal with the tank environment, alone, the disruption the could be caused to the current filtration techniques, means that they may well be too risky for many.
as you know, i am not one to shy away from doing unusual or unpopular things, as such it may seem odd i should council caution so, here's an idea.
if you have a free small tank, even better with two small tanks, i guess, one a true fishless cycle one a "new media". do a fishless cycle, but without the filter. this should allow you to, measure the effectiveness of the medium at removing ammonia. it will also indicate how long, roughly, it will continue to "do its job". in the "true" cycle tank, after the cycle is completed. you can add the "new media" for a time. testing will give you "base line" readings. now remove the "new media". any variations in your water stats should give you an indication of just how much the stuff effects the existing bio filter.

 

[fry_lover]

thanks Boboboy i am definitly interested in doing some kind of experiement with it.

 

[raptorrex]

thanks Boboboy i am definitly interested in doing some kind of experiement with it.

indeed! but perhaps if more than one of us could do it, the results would have more weight. sadly, atm, i cant, as i only have two 30g and a rio 180 free. none of which lend themselves to this. but if anyone know of a stack of free 10g tanks, i'm up for it!!

 

[Dave Spencer]

Purigen is great for the planted tank. All mine are heavily planted EI tanks, and they all have Purigen in the filter. The salts I add for fertilisation are left entirely alone by the Purigen. I have it in there to remove organic nitrogenous waste and tannins, which cause water discolouration.

I regen it over a 24 hour period in non scented household bleach, or until its colour returns. I can`t honestly say how often I regen it, because my tanks are all different sizes, and some don`t have wood in them, leaching tannins. Maybe I change it every five or six months, although Seachem do recommend doing it more often than this.

There are a couple of interesting threads about Purigen on planted forums. One is on UKAPS, started by me, and there is another on APC. I was first put on to Purigen by Jeff Senske, who sets up tanks for people as a living and has an ADA franchise.

Dave.