Rant About Some Members On This Forum And Stocking

[Valyrian]

It seems a lot of the members here have a very self righteous attitude about stocking levels.

I see threads where someone asks if they can add anything to their 10 gallon containing 3 guppies and and oto and get answers like "No, you're pretty much fully stocked"

Are you kidding me? Do the people that answer ever take a look at a 10 gallon tank before they say things like this. Personally, I have a 10 gallon tank to the right of my computer and whenever a stocking question comes up like this, I like to turn my head to look at it just to try to picture what it would be like.

It's true that it's a personal choice if you would like to stock your tanks lightly so that you can do your small weekly water changes and I respect that.

Those people that change 10% of their water weekly is a joke, btw. Do you realize how small of a dent you've made on the nitrate levels with a 10% water change?

But to tell other people that they can't have more fish because it wouldn't adhere to your rules seems wrong to me.

It's true that beginners should have lower stocking levels to make it easier on them and the fish and that fish that are too big should not be kept in tanks that are too small for them. However, I'm talking about the number of fish that are in a tank which is the proper size for them.

If a person wants to slightly overstock their tank, the first thing you do shouldnt be to say "DONT ADD MORE FISH YOU'RE OVERSTOCKED AS IS," even when they are only lightly or moderately stocked. The first thing you should do is ask about their tank parameters, filtration, and water change regime and go for there.

My 10 gallon, by the standards of this forum, is probably heavily stocked with small community fish. However, I choose to do this and also choose to accept the responsibility of the large and frequent water changes that are required with it.

If you want a lightly stocked tank, that's your choice, but please don't tell someone else they can't have a certain number of fish IF they're willing to do the water changes and maintenance required.

Beginners and irresponsible owners are another story.

 

[PlecMama]

Beginners and irresponsible owners are another story.

Herein lies the problem. These are usually the people asking the questions and they really don't know that they can't have three goldfish in that tank - that's why everyone advises them they are doing it wrong.

I'm guessing this is a run on thread from the office tank where there was an involved discussion about how a 5 was not a real tank? I think people just feel that the creatures they are responsible for are entitled to the best life they can give them, and a bunch of fish bumping in to each other every time they turn around are not going to be happy fish, no matter how clean their water is.

And I mean no offence, I haven't seen your tank nor do I know what's swimming in it - but some things are general and the rules for stocking are usually set out to help people.

 

[Valyrian]

It's not really a continuation of the office tank thread, but I did read it and that along with threads I had read in the past were what led me to write this.

Also, when I say my tank is "heavily stocked," I hope you don't think I hav 20-30 fish jammed in a 10 gallon.

I hav about 15 1-1.5 inch fish that each have ample space to dart around and swim, I have yet to see a fish bump into a tank wall, decoration, or other fish while swimming or darting around.

Edit: Also, it's planted so I guess that helps a bit.

 

[cleekdaFish]

i have a 10 gallon and its slightly overstocked....i have a 20 gallon filter and an airstone , so they have plenty of oxygen and I aslo do my weekly water change

 

[Tolak]

Stocking is just as much art as science; there is no perfect mathematical formula for stocking. If I advised stocking by the rules I personally follow, everyone's tank would be stocked beyond belief.

Your tank would be an average stocking by my personal rules, but I realize what I do is rarely what others do, so if I ever give stocking advice, I take what I would stock & divide by two. Most people don't have extra 10's, 20's, & 29's sitting empty, with cycled filters running & spare heaters. This gives me a measure of damage control, a few lifeboats if things get out of hand. I also have a system that makes 50% and larger water changes easy, something many folks don't have set up.

That is the reason I personally advise stocking average or lighter, unless I know for sure you have taken some steps to bail yourself out of a possible bad situation. If you know what you are getting into, and have a backup plan in effect with the equipment on hand, by all means go beyond the average stocking rate, but be prepared for the worst.

In your case, I would hope you have a second 10-gallon, spare heater, and a cycled filter running on the 10 gallon you mentioned. Everyone eventually gets a sick fish; this is something you need to be prepared for.

I have three 10 gallons running right now, one has 6 platys, 4 corys and a male bristlenose. The second has a pair of quarter size angels in quar. The third has around 20 pea to dime size angels, 5 weeks old. The first tank is an average stocking by my standards, the second two are understocked. For someone posting where I don't know of their ability or setup, I would advise rehousing the plec in the first tank, getting at least a 20-gallon in place of the second, and return all the fish in the third.

I imagine most of the stocking advice given here is well intended, and assumes the person asking is fairly new to aquatics. If I post my stocking rates nobody gets too upset. If I were to register as a newbie and start asking stocking questions while explaining the fish I already have in a tank it would be a different story.

 

[Teelie]

What annoys me is when people quote that outdated and usually inaccurate inch per gallon rule. Mostly only newbies/inexperienced people use it as a guideline but it does happen often enough.

I don't use any kind of strict measurement for stocking fish. I try to take in the size and waste production of the various fish in question as well as any special circumstances (fast swimmers, lay abouts or territorially aggressive) then suggest whether they have enough room or not. I also look at their filtration, tank size/dimensions (long vs tall), etc.

Some people get upset when told their stocking levels are unacceptable and then complain about how they're being treated. Sometimes the person(s) telling them it's a bad idea are too harsh or arrogant but not all the time.

What should be remembered is to take into account how many years and how much experience the person(s) giving the advice are. I'd rather take advice from someone who has successfully raised a handful of fish for 20 years over someone who has raised hundreds over 2 or 3 years.

 

[Tommy Gunnz]

You can shoot me later, but please read what I have to say first!!!

Stocking a tank is MUCH more than just your filtration and your williingness to do water changes. To say that is all that is required to overstock a tank is silly and just not the truth. Nor does stocking have much to do with the fishes ability to swim freely and sorry, of course they are not bumping into things.

Stocking also deals with the usual compatability issues, and of course you know this and it is not my point (but a good point for beginners)....

Stocking also deals with the amount of wastes produced by a fish, again a filtration issue and water change can fix some of that issue, still not my point...

Stocking also deals with the high wastes leading to algea out breaks (nitrates support algea, wasted food creates phosphates, etc...), close but I am not there yet.....

What is a HUGE point that many people miss as to the negative effects of overstocking a tank is the higher levels of stress that are put on the fish in these situations. The same can be said about putting yourself into a crowded room or elevator...sucks, doesnt it? You need to keep in mind that you are keeping a life in a small tank, which in some ways in questionable as far as ethics is involved...but this life you are keeping wants to be in a lake, stream, river, ocean (so on and so on) and is now permanetly relying on you to feed it and take care of it and it controls nothing. In a natural habitat, these fish can simply move to another place if they are stressed or unhappy, in a 10 gallon tank, they cant.

My main point here is that if you are going to keep fish, you should do so within some 'rules' or guidelines in order to make both your fish's life and yours mutually benifitting to each other. By over stocking a tank, you could be stressing your fish out and this opens them up to sicknesses and diseases and when one fish gets something, it is likely the rest will...so even one stressed out fish is too many for a tank.


Dont get me wrong, I keep fish and have kept a lot of them. I overstock my cichlid tank just to reduce stress, so there is no 'golden rule' or absolute concrete book to follow on the subject. But to say that it is wrong to tell someone not to get anymore fish is short sighted in my opinion. I have been in and out of forums like this one and others and 9 times out of 10, the 'dont get any more fish, you are overstocked' advice is said to people who put a teeny tiny cute little bala shark in a 10 gallon tank without thinking that the poor fish is going to be over a foot long someday. The same can be said about mollies and platties, which many people overstock with because these little fish, if kept right and kept alive long enough, can reach over three inches in length and show considerable girth to them.

I am looking right now at four 10 gallon tanks, a 55 gallon tank, and a 90 gallon saltwater tank and just feel that if someone along the lines didnt tell me to slow down, quit overstocking, and think about what I am doing, I would have thrown all of these beautiful fish and fish tanks in the garbage due to sheer frustration and not being able to figure out what I was doing wrong to get Ich 40 times and dropsy 30 times in one year.

I hope that you can 'hear' my sincerity in this posting and not any sort of attempt at talking down on you, but I honestly think that there is such a thing as overstocking and even you, in your later post, start to back track on your origonal statements and explain yourself and how many fish you keep and their sizes.

 

[Valyrian]

I wasn't saying that overstocking is ok.

I also said in my post that what I was talking about were fish that could properly fit in the tank they are in, such as the number of platies in a 30.

A bala shark cannot fit into a 10 gallon and I know that, and I'm not saying we shouldn't tell people they're wrong when they keep them in one.

I'm talking about the people that tell people that 6 platies, 1 rainbow shark, and 1 bristlenose pleco is already fully stocked for a 30 gallon.

 

[Tommy Gunnz]

Again, I am not trying to stir up any hard feelings here, but you were not very spacific about the types of comments such as this last example. I am sorry.

Still, to give a rainbow shark the best habitat to grow to its full potential, a 35 gallon tank would be needed. I am not trying to be picky here, but really, there are too many scenarios to 'rant' about people who rant about overstocking. It is all a matter of opinions and experiences and spacific situations as well. In fact, too many scenarios really to be able to make any sort of book about the subject unless a book had one chapter for every fish out there.

I still dont think I have heard vary many opinions given on 6 platties, 1 rainbow shark, and 1 BN pleco as being overstocked in a 30 gallon. Trust me, I am not the saint or consumate 'do-gooder' here. Until a couple months ago when I bought a new house, I had a 50 gallon long tank with over 100 molly and platty fry in it. I was definetly overstocked but could manage with 50 percent water changes every other day and the fish had tons of room to move around in. (In fact, there was a rainbow shark in there as well, now he is in my cichlid tank. I know MANY people who could go on and on about that stocking).

Personally, I would certainly chime in on the advice as given on your last example if there was not a good, scientific reasoning behind it.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

i use the full-length "inch per gallon" guideline because its a good description for the vast majority of community fish. it also gives a generous safety margin (which most people quickly use up by inadequate filtration and maintenance). but whenever i use the "inch per gallon", i use the disclaimer that it only really applies to small, thin fish and that it describes a condition that can be controlled with minimal filtration and small weekly water changes.

that means that if you increase your filtration or your water changes, then you can probably increase the number of small community fish.

at the same time, i also use it as a guideline for big fish. my logic is that if you had the equivalent lengths of fish in neon tetras and your tank is overstocked, then its DEFINITELY overstocked if you're keeping an oscar. this is of course absent territorial and aggression considerations. i guess in my mind, "inch per gallon" isn't so much a description of minimum tank size but is more of a description of maximum amount of fish which you can keep without increasing filtration and maintenance.

and i don't see why it's outdated just because it's old. LFS haven't gotten any better about selling undersized equipment and oversized fish. nor do most newbies enter into this hobby thinking "boy, i want to muck out the tank three times a week and buy a filter that costs ten times as much as my fish." people get sold cheapie, inadequate filters and are told that they only need to change water once a month because that's what they want to hear from the stores. and the stores want to make money. i think that the "inch per gallon" guideline is especially useful for newbies because it originated back when equipment wasn't very good and the nitrogen cycle still wasn't understood very well. which means that the newbie's fish should still be pretty safe even if they totally screw up. obviously it isn't fail-safe, but its helpful.

(oh, and 6 platies (18" max), a rainbow shark (6"-ish), and a bn (5" plus a 2" mess penalty) is still only 31"--which is nothing to pitch a fit over. its a guideline, not a hard and fast natural law. i would still say that it's full but i would also say that more non-territorial fish could be added provided that filtration was at least 4x-6x or maintenance increased from the minimum.)

 

[Nevergone815]

(oh, and 6 platies (18" max), a rainbow shark (6"-ish), and a bn (5" plus a 2" mess penalty) is still only 31"--which is nothing to pitch a fit over. its a guideline, not a hard and fast natural law. )

i go by this too. to me even though they would be larger bodied at full size, i look at the 1" rule. of course you might want to decide to get a bigger tank or larger filtration, but it isn't necessary at that point .

 

[Tommy Gunnz]

I think in a lot of ways you guys are right, but I try to stay away from the 'inch per gallon' rule as it implies that I could keep a 10 inch fish in a 10 gallon tank (this is an extreme example). I also think that an Oscar is the perfect example of a fish that cannot apply to the inch per gallon since it is such a high waste producer (as are preditory fish or meat eating fish.) I think that in the case of an Oscar, most any tank would need some very good filtration do deal with the high wastes.

What I hear you saying is that the inch per gallon rule only applies when conditions A, B, and C are met, which limits alot of people to really small fish like neon tetras. Again, I wont totally disagree on you, but there are better ways to look at fish sizes compared to tank size, IMHO.

 

[Teelie]

I say the incer per gallon rule is outdated and inaccurate because the system really does only work with smaller Tetra and Guppy sized fish. It used to be the majority of fish were that size in the hobby but it's long since grown past small community fish and once you reach 3-4" the numbers start to go out the window.

Also, look at something like Kuhli Loaches or some of the other smaller loach species, they're between 3-4 inches in length but their body size is more in line with a fish nearly half that size because of their slender shape. Also, where do you judge the inches of the fish at? Tip of the nose to end of the body? What about Angel fish where their body shape is taller, or plecos or other flat fish where the body is wider and flatter? And that doesn't even get into the amount of waste they produce either which is probably 2-3 times that of other fish that size.

The rule is more a loose guideline at this point and only for a certain group of community fish. The faster it's done away with or at least modified and given a more clarified explanation it is not a definite rule, the better.

What people should be learning is how to cycle their tank, to take their time picking out the fish they want, learning the needs of the fish and how to care for them. An article I read recently said very pointedly if people were allowed to treat cats and dogs the way fish are, there would be a massive public outrage over it. Sadly, dogs and cats are mistreated badly enough as it is so imagine how much worse fish get treated.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

What I hear you saying is that the inch per gallon rule only applies when conditions A, B, and C are met, which limits alot of people to really small fish like neon tetras.

no, it just means that when conditions A, B, and C are not met, the rule doesn't really apply. but if you *do* have a big fish and you are *still* breaking the guideline, then you really have a problem with your stocking. again, when using the "inch per gallon" rule, it isn't providing a minimum but a maximum.

and it most certainly does NOT mean that an oscar can go in a 15g. not in the full form: absent territorial needs, one can stock approximately 1" of slim-bodied fish under 5" in length per US gallon without requiring extra filtration or cleaning beyond the absolute minimum.

see how an oscar is territorial, thick-bodied, and longer than 5"? thus the rule doesn't apply. which doesn't mean that oscars can't be kept in an aquarium--it just means that other rules apply to proper stocking for an oscar. similarly, malawi cichlids are for the most part exempt from the "inch per gallon" rule due to their extreme territoriality and aggression. thus most rift cichlids are kept in tanks that are technically overstocked in order to control the fighting--which is why these tanks have to have immense amounts of filtration and frequent large water changes.

of course, the best explanation of why an oscar can't live in a 15g is that it literally wouldn't be able to fit! when dealing with any large fish, always be sure to specify that they should ideally be kept in a tank that is at least 4 times the fish length long, 1.5 times the fish length wide and 1.5 times the fish length tall. (see CFC's pinned topic in Oddballs.) this isn't really a description of appropriate water volume, though. it only describes the minimum space necessary for a fish to comfortably navigate.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

oo, naughty me, double posting!

I say the incer per gallon rule is outdated and inaccurate because the system really does only work with smaller Tetra and Guppy sized fish. It used to be the majority of fish were that size in the hobby but it's long since grown past small community fish and once you reach 3-4" the numbers start to go out the window.

Also, look at something like Kuhli Loaches or some of the other smaller loach species, they're between 3-4 inches in length but their body size is more in line with a fish nearly half that size because of their slender shape. Also, where do you judge the inches of the fish at? Tip of the nose to end of the body? What about Angel fish where their body shape is taller, or plecos or other flat fish where the body is wider and flatter? And that doesn't even get into the amount of waste they produce either which is probably 2-3 times that of other fish that size.

The rule is more a loose guideline at this point and only for a certain group of community fish. The faster it's done away with or at least modified and given a more clarified explanation it is not a definite rule, the better.

in my LFS, except for the goldies and the cichlids, most of the available fish are still tetras and livebearers.

khuli loaches are pretty well equivalent to 3-4 neons in size and therefore in body mass. pure and simple. length is judged by center of eyeball to just before the start of the tail. angels and plecos aren't really slim-bodied--and most of them aren't under 5" in length. i suppose that i should have specified ADULT length.

its only a "rule" because we keep calling it that let's all make a pact to refer to it as a guideine from now on and maybe that will help things. and how about we start saying the whole thing to people instead of just the abbreviation, or at least mention the fact that it doesn't apply to certain types of fish because it underestimates the amount of waste produced. people like to go around saying that "inch per gallon" doesn't really apply to this, that and the other, but they don't like to go around saying that the reason it doesn't apply is that the guideline is a major underestimation.

you're right about one thing. we fishkeepers as a group need to start emphasizing the importance of 4x-6x gallons-per-hour filtration rates and weekly 15-25% water changes as the minimum standards of fishkeeping. these are frequently overlooked in when guiding newbies about stocking decisions. these numbers should show up as often as the "inch per gallon" guidline, if not even more often.

What people should be learning is how to cycle their tank, to take their time picking out the fish they want, learning the needs of the fish and how to care for them. An article I read recently said very pointedly if people were allowed to treat cats and dogs the way fish are, there would be a massive public outrage over it. Sadly, dogs and cats are mistreated badly enough as it is so imagine how much worse fish get treated.

throwing out the "inch per gallon" guideline isn't going to help eliminate overstocking. explaining exactly what conditions are necessary for the guideline to apply might help. explaining that the guideline gives the maximum number of fish not the minimum gallonage will help. explaining how a technically overstocked tank can still be made acceptable will definitely help. "inch per gallon" is one of the few things that keeps newbies from cramming 10 guppies in 10 gallons--what we need to do is start popularizing the qualified version that helps demonstrate why 5 guppies in 10 gallons is ok but 1 pleco in 10 gallons is not.