Questions 0N Plants!

[DAlmond123]

I'm currently transforming my tank to planted. I took out my large gravel and added some pea size gravel instead. The lighting unit that I have now only gives my tank 1/3 a watt per gallon and I want more because I can't keep any plants besides Anubias and Java Ferns. My tank is a 65 gallon. The people at my lfs said I need to focus on getting up to 90 watts per gallon over my tank in T-5 light, would that be okay? I would like to also know which place online sells the cheapest aquarium plants according to the thread about where to buy plants: Aqua Botonic, Aquarium Plants, FreshWater Aquarium Plants, Bob's Tropical Plants, Live Aquaria, or Sweet Aquatics.

 

[lljdma06]

Hello DAlmond123 and welcome,

Did you lfs also mention that with 90W of T5 over your 65g that would possibly have to inject CO2 (most likely pressurized) and dose a fert that contains macro as well as micro nutrients? While 90W over 65g doesn't seem especially high, we are talking T5s.

Those are other factors to consider when considering establishing a planted tank. There are plans for non-CO2 tanks and CO2 tanks that are equally as beautiful, IMO, but the hobbiest has to decide what they want to do.

Did you look over and read through some articles in PARC?

llj

 

[DAlmond123]

Hello! Yes, I have already read through the articles in PARC. My lfs didn't exactly say that. They said that it would be more than enough, so they get the gist of things. I don't want to inject CO2, so what wattage would you recommend? Because my tank is so wide, it's hard to find lighting for it. Either I get one that's not enough or too much in this case.

I've always dosed my tank with Flourish & Excel by Seachem.

 

[lljdma06]

In that case, if it were me, I would not go beyond 65W of T8 or 55W of T5, round about, maybe some give or take, depending on what you find. A good start is to see how much a twin-tube T8 would get you watt-wise. Aim for a tube length that spans most of the tank length. You want steady coverage and good spread, not necessarily heavy intensity.

I'm very lazy and use TPN+, which doses macros as well as micros. Many here also use Seachem products as well. I do not inject CO2 gas or dose liquid CO2 and this may not be cost-effective for you either. You know Seachem does sell liquid macros (N, P, K). With your size tank, though, I'd consider perhaps making your own ferts. That can be found in PARC as well.

llj

 

[DAlmond123]

Why so low on the wattage? If it makes it any difference, the bulbs are T5 HO = High Output w/ Reflector and it's a hex tank. The lighting unit that I'm planning to buy comes in 24W, 39W, 48W, 54W, 78W and 108W. So which one of those? Please give me a good answer because I would not like to buy the unit and find out it's not enough light.

I plan to have Aponotogens, Java Ferns, Dwarf Sags, Water Onions, Amazon Swords, Italian Vals, Dwarf Lilies and Crypts.

I think the pricing of the Excel is not that bad so I'll stick with that.

 

[lljdma06]

Why so low on the wattage? If it makes it any difference, the bulbs are T5 HO = High Output w/ Reflector and it's a hex tank. The lighting unit that I'm planning to buy comes in 24W, 39W, 48W, 54W, 78W and 108W. So which one of those? Please give me a good answer because I would not like to buy the unit and find out it's not enough light.

I plan to have Aponotogens, Java Ferns, Dwarf Sags, Water Onions, Amazon Swords, Italian Vals, Dwarf Lilies and Crypts.

I think the pricing of the Excel is not that bad so I'll stick with that.

I'm advising you to consider reducing your lighting because you don't want to inject CO2. The more light you have the more need you will have for CO2 and ferts. If you can't provide the plants with the nutrients they need, then you'll get algae. It's mostly the CO2. The more light you have, the higher, more stable levels of CO2 you'll need because your plants will consume more. Even if you don't provide enough CO2 in a low-light, things move at such a slow pace, that even algae issues are slower to develop, and subsequently, easier to catch before it overuns the tank.

You can dose excel. I just don't think it's cost effective and won't give the most stable CO2 levels in the long run.

None of the plants on your list are particularly demanding.

For me, it's either the 54W or the 78W. Those two are closest to the numbers that I mentioned. My current setup runs on .77WPG of T5 (not HO), so kind of like 1WPG of T8s and has grown about half of what's on your list.

Granted, I've been the only one who's replied, so if you want, wait for another to offer their suggestions as well.

llj

 

[DAlmond123]

I like your advice. I just didn't realize that even a small upgrade on the light causes that much to change. I currently have a 20 watt T5 bulb over the tank. So really you want a wpg of T8 over a tank and then you subtract 10 watts to get the right wattage for T5?

If it was your tank, would you choose the 54 watt bulb? Do you think it's possible to not add CO2 with the 78W?

 

[jacko32]

hi i run 36watts on my 22gallon thats 1.63WPG i grow all the plants you have listed and more besides that inclueding riccia flutans, java moss and xmas moss the only thing i add to the water is sera plant food and root tabs everything grows great and theres no algea problems

 

[DAlmond123]

Thanks for your advice Jacko32. How long do you leave your lights on per day? So it seems I could get the 54W, 78W, or 108W. Decisions, decisions!

 

[jacko32]

Thanks for your advice Jacko32. How long do you leave your lights on per day? So it seems I could get the 54W, 78W, or 108W. Decisions, decisions!

i would go for the 78w that would be plenty
i keep my lights on 10 hours a day

 

[DAlmond123]

I was thinking about going with that one too. I just don't see how 1.2 wpg's will allow me to grow everything I want. The 108W will get more closer to a setup like yours though. I guess it does work differently though because my tank is 3 times bigger than yours.

 

[lljdma06]

Lighting determines how fast plants grow and consume nutrients. The more light, the more they will need. If this were my tank this is what I would do with the given options.

54W - IMO no CO2 will be needed, but you must limit yourself to plants that will do well in a CO2-limited environment. These include crypts, java fern, most mosses, anubias, swords, some liverworts, hardy stemplants (hygrophila polysperma), nymphaea, bolbitis, some vallis, some sags, marsilea. As you can see the list is quite large. I would limit the water changes to encourage low, but stable levels of CO2 (naturally occuring through gas-exchange) and dose regularly. Given a dense planting, this would yield a slow-growing, but manageable planted tank, but you are somewhat limited. Waterchanges, 25-50% weekly at first to avoid ammonia, then tapering to once a month or so at less than 25%. Depending on plantmass a 4-8hour photoperiod. Dose once in a while with an all-purpose that preferably has macros. A tank of mine that does this is my current 36g.

78W - IMO you can go one of two ways.

-non-CO2: This would require very dense planting and a reduced photoperiod. You would have to be careful because you are asking your plants to grow faster. This setup would have more stems. I have done a non-CO2 setup with lighting that high, but it is a little tricky. If you avoid the ammonia-based algae with lots of waterchanges, you can have a pretty good tank with little algae. Continue to dose macros. Your CO2 may become unstable, and too low for some species, however. My Dutch 8g from 2007 did this. I did have algae, however, mostly the stuff caused by limited CO2. It wasn't much, though. I think what saved me was that it was almost entirely comprised of stems and had a huge plantmass. I grew some pretty nice stems (A reineckii, Heternantera zosterfolia, rotala rotudifolia, Hemianthus). It seems, however, that none of the plants were particularly demanding with regard to CO2, the tank was heavily stocked, and somehow I managed to keep the levels stable enough to only get mild algae.

-CO2: With your size tank, pressurized is the best option. You will pretty much be able to grow whatever you want with this lighting level, provided that you add CO2 and dose ferts. Several here are doing these types of lower light, but nice CO2 and fert systems and getting some great results. Supercoley grew R. macrandra at .9WPG with this type of setup. Others are getting HC carpets, etc.

108W - IMO the only difference between the 78W and this is that the plants will grow faster and will require more nutrients. You'd better have pressurized. Reduced photo period to start (4 hours) and 50% waterchanges sometimes twice a week.

You don't want CO2. If it were me, I'd go with the 54W T5 and work with the limited species. This is a 65g tank. I would not want to do weekly 50% waterchanges. The tank will grow enough plants to be a very nicely functioning planted aquarium and you won't have to work as hard. It is up to you.

llj

 

[DAlmond123]

Lighting determines how fast plants grow and consume nutrients. The more light, the more they will need. If this were my tank this is what I would do with the given options.

54W - IMO no CO2 will be needed, but you must limit yourself to plants that will do well in a CO2-limited environment. These include crypts, java fern, most mosses, anubias, swords, some liverworts, hardy stemplants (hygrophila polysperma), nymphaea, bolbitis, some vallis, some sags, marsilea. As you can see the list is quite large. I would limit the water changes to encourage low, but stable levels of CO2 (naturally occuring through gas-exchange) and dose regularly. Given a dense planting, this would yield a slow-growing, but manageable planted tank, but you are somewhat limited. Waterchanges, 25-50% weekly at first to avoid ammonia, then tapering to once a month or so at less than 25%. Depending on plantmass a 4-8hour photoperiod. Dose once in a while with an all-purpose that preferably has macros. A tank of mine that does this is my current 36g.

llj

Thanks for your reply!
I think this is what I'll go with. I noticed you put in vals and sags. Could italian vals, jungle vals, and dwarf sags work? Will aponotogens work too?
Do you know of some good all-purpose macro fertilizers and how many weeks do I need to do the 25-50% weekly waterchanges before I go to once a month?
Also, do you know of a good site or would mind explaining how you can use less wattage if it's T-5. People have always talked about it but I never get it.

 

[lljdma06]

Lighting determines how fast plants grow and consume nutrients. The more light, the more they will need. If this were my tank this is what I would do with the given options.

54W - IMO no CO2 will be needed, but you must limit yourself to plants that will do well in a CO2-limited environment. These include crypts, java fern, most mosses, anubias, swords, some liverworts, hardy stemplants (hygrophila polysperma), nymphaea, bolbitis, some vallis, some sags, marsilea. As you can see the list is quite large. I would limit the water changes to encourage low, but stable levels of CO2 (naturally occuring through gas-exchange) and dose regularly. Given a dense planting, this would yield a slow-growing, but manageable planted tank, but you are somewhat limited. Waterchanges, 25-50% weekly at first to avoid ammonia, then tapering to once a month or so at less than 25%. Depending on plantmass a 4-8hour photoperiod. Dose once in a while with an all-purpose that preferably has macros. A tank of mine that does this is my current 36g.

llj

Thanks for you reply!
I think this is what I'll go with. I noticed you put in vals and sags. Could italian vals, jungle vals, and dwarf sags work? Will aponotogens work too?
Do you know of some good all-purpose macro fertilizers and how many weeks do I need to do the 25-50% weekly waterchanges before I go to once a month?
Also, do you know of a good site or would mind explaining how you can use less wattage if it's T-5. People have always talked about it but I never get it.

Aponogetons, sorry, forgot. Except for Madagascar lace. Vallis and sags are pretty similar. Should work.

I have never measure how long I do the weekly waterchanges. I guess I did until I began to see the CO2 related algae, or until I had all my stock in. I can't really pinpoint it that particular tank.

T5s just have a higher intensity, so you need less wattage. There is no real ratio that I know of. I've kind of just eyeballed it. There may be an article somewhere. I vaguely remember one.

I use TPN+. Love it. Works really well. You can also mix your own ferts. In PARC, I have a link for that.

llj

 

[DAlmond123]

The link in PARC to make your ferts looks like alot of work. I'll probably just get some TPN+ (is that available in the US) and some root tabs by seachem since crypts and swords are heavy root feeders. I know Excel won't work with vals. Is there another type of liquid carbon?

Do you think I could also have anacharis in my tank or what are some more stem plant beside [font="verdana][size="2"]hygrophila polysperma[/size][/font][font="verdana][size="2"]? Could I still do the dwarf water onions?[/size][/font]