Quarantine and Pre-Treatment Thoughts...

[noobfish]

Not long ago I started my first tank. Didn't do the research I should have and ended up doing a fish-in cycle. About 10 days in I picked up a few more fish (tetras) because I apparently like to learn things the hard way! Within a day or two these tetras had mouth rot and a few days later had given it to an existing tank member. Not having a hospital/quarantine tank I had to treat the whole community tank, effectively erasing any progress I had made in the cycle.
As stated, I learn the hard way, but I do learn. I just picked up a 10g tank to run in the basement so it's on hand and ready should the need for treatment arise. My question is, what are everyone's thoughts on pre-treating stock before adding them to the community tank. For example, if I were to purchase a few more tetras to add, could I quarantine them in the 10g for a week and treat them with say Melafix or ParaGuard prior to adding them in with the rest? Basically treating any bacteria they may have from the LFS for their health, as well as protecting the flock.
Thoughts?

 

[Colin_T]

The only thing you should treat fish for are known diseases. If they don't develop diseases in quarantine, then you do not treat them for any.

Most chemicals and medications do some damage to the fish.

If you want to treat the fish for anything, use a deworming product to treat them for intestinal worms and gill flukes. You should also treat the main tank if that hasn't been done. Deworming medications are one of the safer medications to use prophylactically.

 

[noobfish]

The only thing you should treat fish for are known diseases. If they don't develop diseases in quarantine, then you do not treat them for any.

Most chemicals and medications do some damage to the fish.

If you want to treat the fish for anything, use a deworming product to treat them for intestinal worms and gill flukes. You should also treat the main tank if that hasn't been done. Deworming medications are one of the safer medications to use prophylactically.

So quarantine yes, just without meds.

Any suggestions on specific deworming meds? I've never specifically treated the main tank for that, just treated it with Kanaplex for the rot. Don't think it does anything for worms.

 

[Colin_T]

Kanaplex is Kanamycin, an anti-biotic that only works on some types of bacteria and does nothing to any other type of disease organism.

Anti-biotics should only be used as a last resort on known bacterial infections that have not responded to normal treatments.

-------------------
See section 3 of the following link for deworming fish.

What to do if your fish has Stringy White Poop.

Fish do a stringy white poop for several reasons. 1) Internal Bacterial Infections causes the fish to stop eating, swell up like a balloon, breath heavily at the surface or near a filter outlet, do stringy white poop, and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms. This cannot normally be...

www.fishforums.net

 

[Sunnyspots]

Thinking of fish diseases as if they were human diseases, a doctor would never be cavalier with treatments when there is no evidence of a relevant disease. Especially not with antibiotics as the risk of any present bacteria developing resistance is both high and dangerous, including then to humans! Even innocuous-seeming bacteria can cause disease if they get to the wrong part of the body, and we need to be able to defeat them then.

 

[noobfish]

Thinking of fish diseases as if they were human diseases, a doctor would never be cavalier with treatments when there is no evidence of a relevant disease. Especially not with antibiotics as the risk of any present bacteria developing resistance is both high and dangerous, including then to humans! Even innocuous-seeming bacteria can cause disease if they get to the wrong part of the body, and we need to be able to defeat them then.

Agree. Just wasn't thinking of Melafix as an antibiotic, but rather a safe cleanser of sorts. In the same mindset that you wouldn't just buy a chunk of dragon rock or other decor and throw it in the tank without cleaning it first. The main concern being not introducing something into the tank that could affect the population. If the answer is to just quarantine the new additions and watch for signs of disease, what is an appropriate amount of time for the quarantine? How long is long enough to be confident that any potential existing issues would present themselves?

 

[noobfish]

Kanaplex is Kanamycin, an anti-biotic that only works on some types of bacteria and does nothing to any other type of disease organism.

Anti-biotics should only be used as a last resort on known bacterial infections that have not responded to normal treatments.

-------------------
See section 3 of the following link for deworming fish.

What to do if your fish has Stringy White Poop.

Fish do a stringy white poop for several reasons. 1) Internal Bacterial Infections causes the fish to stop eating, swell up like a balloon, breath heavily at the surface or near a filter outlet, do stringy white poop, and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms. This cannot normally be...

www.fishforums.net

Kanaplex was used to treat the mouth rot. Started with 3 tetras. After treating for 3 days with ParaGuard, there was no improvement and the dwarf gourami contracted it. That's when I switched to Kanaplex. Too late for the tetras, but saved the gourami (still has a small deformation of the mouth, but healed nicely in about 4 days).

 

[Sunnyspots]

Agree. Just wasn't thinking of Melafix as an antibiotic, but rather a safe cleanser of sorts. In the same mindset that you wouldn't just buy a chunk of dragon rock or other decor and throw it in the tank without cleaning it first. The main concern being not introducing something into the tank that could affect the population. If the answer is to just quarantine the new additions and watch for signs of disease, what is an appropriate amount of time for the quarantine? How long is long enough to be confident that any potential existing issues would present themselves?

When it comes to quarantining I've heard everything from 2 weeks to about 8! I would think 2 weeks would be a minimum. I haven't needed to do it yet but I think I'd give it 2-3 weeks myself.

Sorry if my post came across as preachy. I guess I am an evangelist when it comes to the use of antibiotics, but then I'm a retired doctor so I know the desperate importance of doing anything to avoid the creation of antibiotic resistant bacteria. Oops. Getting preachy again!

 

[Byron]

I concur with the advice of other members here; never "treat" something that is not obviously an issue. These concoctions do more harm than good when they are not needed and are not the best treatment for "x" when present. And there is no such thing as some sort of "general cure/preventative" for several diseases.

I keep my fish in the QT for several weeks. Ich is usually obvious within the first week or maybe two, but internal issues may not be externally evident for weeks. I should say though that my QT for new fish acquisitions is a permanently-running small tank, sand substrate, a chunk or two of wood for shelter, and thick floating plants. The fish thus get introduced to an established (not just "cycled") tank from day one which allows them to settle must faster and thus with far less likelihood of stress. And stress is what causes more than 90% of fish disease; without stress, fish can usually deal with this or that.

I have often seen ich on new fish, just one spot maybe, but by placing them in an established QT for 3-4 weeks they can shake this off without intervention. But it is a simple matter to raise the heat if necessary. If the new fish begin dying within a few weeks, with absolutely no external signs of why, it is better to lose them all in the QT than to risk infecting a tank of healthy fish by moving them over too soon. And some of the internal protozoan issues can take a few weeks to manifest themselves.

 

[noobfish]

I concur with the advice of other members here; never "treat" something that is not obviously an issue. These concoctions do more harm than good when they are not needed and are not the best treatment for "x" when present. And there is no such thing as some sort of "general cure/preventative" for several diseases.

I keep my fish in the QT for several weeks. Ich is usually obvious within the first week or maybe two, but internal issues may not be externally evident for weeks. I should say though that my QT for new fish acquisitions is a permanently-running small tank, sand substrate, a chunk or two of wood for shelter, and thick floating plants. The fish thus get introduced to an established (not just "cycled") tank from day one which allows them to settle must faster and thus with far less likelihood of stress. And stress is what causes more than 90% of fish disease; without stress, fish can usually deal with this or that.

I have often seen ich on new fish, just one spot maybe, but by placing them in an established QT for 3-4 weeks they can shake this off without intervention. But it is a simple matter to raise the heat if necessary. If the new fish begin dying within a few weeks, with absolutely no external signs of why, it is better to lose them all in the QT than to risk infecting a tank of healthy fish by moving them over too soon. And some of the internal protozoan issues can take a few weeks to manifest themselves.

When you say "raise the heat", do you have a temp range in mind? Taking notes here in case of future need.

Also, what is your criteria for an "established" tank. My plan was to take some substrate and the water needed from my main tank when I do a water change/cleaning this weekend to start the QT tank. I can transfer a few plants too. After that I just plan to add a little food once or twice a week to keep it going. Seems easier to maintain than to setup/tear down when needed. But what's your recommendation for run time till established (assuming parameters are good)?

 

[Byron]

When you say "raise the heat", do you have a temp range in mind? Taking notes here in case of future need.

The safest and best treatment for ich is to increase the temperature of the water to 30C/86F for two weeks. Most fish can manage this.

Also, what is your criteria for an "established" tank. My plan was to take some substrate and the water needed from my main tank when I do a water change/cleaning this weekend to start the QT tank. I can transfer a few plants too. After that I just plan to add a little food once or twice a week to keep it going. Seems easier to maintain than to setup/tear down when needed. But what's your recommendation for run time till established (assuming parameters are good)?

An established tank is one that has been running for a few months, as opposed to setting up the QT every time you acquire new fish. [The QT for new fish is different than the QT to treat "x" on a fish.] I used to have a 20g running for this, but now it is a 10g since I moved and downsized my tanks; I am unlikely to acquire so many fish they will not be fine in the 10g. It just runs with the sponge filter, heater and light. There is moss on the wood, and floating plants. It may run for over a year with no fish; I do water changes but not as often as if there were fish in it. And I do add some liquid plant fertilizer periodically. It has a few pond snails, but I don't feed them, they find sufficient with algae, plant matter, etc.

There is no value in "old water" unless you are moving fish over and want to keep the same parameters/conditions. I fill the QT with tap water, no conditioner, and water changes from then on use straight tap water (until there are fish obviously).

 

[noobfish]

There is no value in "old water" unless you are moving fish over and want to keep the same parameters/conditions. I fill the QT with tap water, no conditioner, and water changes from then on use straight tap water (until there are fish obviously).

My thought was that old water would help provide bacteria to start. If no water conditioner, will bacteria establish given the chlorine content? Plants will be ok?

And yes, I will deep dive into a QT tank. I like projects to stay busy. If I had the funds to support it, I'd have enough tanks that'd I be doing water changes on at least one a day!

 

[Essjay]

There are virtually no bacteria in the water as the bacteria live in the biofilm which is tightly bound to surfaces.

Byron keeps his quarantine tank running with plants between quarantines, and without fish in there any bacteria in there would die off. When he does want to quarantine fish, there are enough plants to remove all the ammonia made by the fish so he doesn't need any bacteria. So when there are no fish in quarantine it is safe to use straight tap water.

 

[Byron]

@Essjay got it. I ran this past someone with much more knowledge of bacteria than I have (no, not Neale this time!) questioning if using straight chlorinated water might serve to kill off any "bad" bacteria from the last new fish, and he said probably. So, that is a positive. The plants need chlorine as one of their micro-nutrients, and while I don't have data on how much it would take to harm them, I doubt this is likely.

There is evidence (according to published articles in PFK anyway) that chlorine will not always kill the nitrifying bacteria, depending upon the exposure time, and the strength of the chlorine. I've never had to fuss over nitrifying bacteria because I always have plants, and every tank has lots of floating plants. It is pretty much impossible to overload a tank with fish (within reason) to the point there will be ammonia beyond what the plants can easily and quickly deal with.