Pterophylum Scalare

[Dan Robbins]

would the common angel be found in the orinoco? or the rio negro?
i cant get any deffinate answers on the internet.
many thanks
Dan

 

[nmonks]

To start with, the "common angel" of the hobby is a hybrid, and not native to anywhere. If the angels in your shop are less than £20, they're probably these hybrids.

If you're talking about Pterophyllum scalare, that's found across quite a wide area, including the Amazon River basin as well as some other rivers in Brazil, Colombia, Guyana and Peru. Pterophyllum leopoldi has a similar distribution. Both these species are found in a variety of habitats, but typically whitewater rivers rather more than blackwater rivers, so in that sense are different to the discus fish, which are classic blackwater residents. Neither of these species are traded much, though you see the odd specimen (with a high price tag!) in good aquarium shops.

Pterophyllum altum has a more restricted range including the Rio Negro and some of the smaller rivers of the Orinoco, from which the other two species are (I believe) absent. It's a more blackwater fish than the other two species.

There is a fourth species in the trade called the Peruvian angelfish or Peruvian altum. It's believed to be a variety of Pterophyllum scalare though some aquarists argue it is a distinct. That remains for ichthyologists to confirm either way. In any case, it's the common "altum" of the hobby at the moment, at least in England.

Fishbase is always a good place to confirm the distribution of fish, though it is based on the published literature rather than the very latest findings.

Cheers, Neale

would the common angel be found in the orinoco? or the rio negro?
i cant get any deffinate answers on the internet.
many thanks
Dan

 

[Dan Robbins]

A hybrid? i was unaware of that. Do you mean between two species or are you refering to the domestication of the Scalare?
Dan

 

[Tolak]

The "common angel" found in your shop is descendant of the wild angels found widely distributed around the Amazon. They are both Pterophyllum scalare. Leopoldi (dummerelli, eimekei) are a different fish, often the only way for a definite identification is through scale count, and somewhat ray count. Altum are a third different type.

Some crossing over is bound to have occured at some time, the Amazon is a huge place. I'm not aware of any genetic testing that has been done with the different binomial types, this would be interesting.

I do have some scans from an old book concerning scale & ray count if anyone besides nmonks & I are interested in this sort of thing;

I'd like to see some pics of that scalare termed an altum, it just may be a tall finned silver veil.

 

[nmonks]

The common angel traded today is certainly derived for more than one species, probably all three of them, to some degree. The main confusion is between Pterophyllum leopoldi and Pterophyllum scalare, which weren't differentiated by the trade when first imported. So breeders took whatever they had available, and then crossed them over the years to produce all the fancy varieties we see today. Even so-called wild-type angelfish in the trade aren't real Pterophyllum scalare, even though they look quite a lot like them.

While aquarium books often talk about Pterophyllum scalare as the common angelfish, that's really not the case, any more than the traded swordtails aren't Xiphophorus hellerii but are in fact hybrids with other Xiphophorus species.

Cheers, Neale

Tolak -- Those scans reveal precisely the problem. Pterophyllum scalare and Pterophyllum eimekei are the same species, as is (according to Fishbase at least) the species that used to be called Pterophyllum dumerilii, the "roman-nosed" angel, though I thought it was Pterophyllum leopoldi. It's actually extremely difficult to identify angelfish species. To get "true" species you really need to get a trustworthy retailer and certainly expect to pay top dollar.

PPS -- The "Peruvian" altum is the one with the tall body shape, but black vertical bands. True altums generally have brown bands. To save me going through the whole thing again, here's a link to an article I wrote for Tropical Fish Finder.

By way of illustration:

A Peru Altum:

Two True Altums:

Some Leopoldi

A hybrid? i was unaware of that. Do you mean between two species or are you refering to the domestication of the Scalare?

 

[Dan Robbins]

very interesting post.
Iv always been keen on my cichlids, but have never looked into angelfish.
i managed to get some some P.leopoldi on the order lists a few weeks ago, but unfortunatly they didnt travel well, and only abour 4 out of the 20 that arrived were alive.
shame really, im now beginging to realise how stunning they can be.

Anyways. Tolak, what book is that out of intrest? any good?