Plant Newb

[Bluetooth]

Ok so basically im set to leave the plants alone with the current co2 and light then.

What if i want to look at growing some moss on the bogwood i have and maybe some crypts you mentioned? (what exactly are crypts?)

 

[RadaR]

As far as I'm aware you're not dosing any form of carbon/CO2.
To see improvements you can dose Excel.
Crypts=cryptocoryne. Google them. Very easy to look after

 

[Bluetooth]

Excel being? Googled it but i get a lot of wrong searches =-)

Edit: Nvm after a little tweaking i found it, i take it your referring to flourish excel?

 

[RadaR]

Seachem Flourish Excel. It's a liquid carbon additive that can be dosed daily to deliver carbon to the plants.
Easylife Easycarbo is the same thing.
AquaEssentials make thier own version that is cheaper.

 

[KittyKat]

[...] and nitrates can still pose a threat to fish.

Fortunately, Tom Barr has never heard of anyone killing their fish by overdosing nitrates in 15years+. Salmon and trout however do have an intolerance of nitrate. Most fish deaths in the planted tank are caused by CO2 gassing.

Unfortunately, Tom Barr is not someone I would trust with my fish.
Nitrate intolerance is not limited to salmon and trout, unfortunately, and the most common example I have come across in home aquaria are blue rams (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi) who don't always tolerate even 25ppm.
I must say, I have never come across a case of CO[sub]2[/sub] poisoning myself.. but I guess if there is CO[sub]2[/sub] dosing and the tank is so stocked/lacking in light or fertiliser that the plants can not support the fish and there is no surface movement to encourage gas exchange with the atmosphere.. it could happen..
As for nitrate intoxication, most fish will survive as much as 250-500ppm (at which point dosing nitrates is pointless because they are obviously not being used up anyway), but for good health, a long term limit of 50ppm or 25ppm is recommended for most fish in home aquaria, meaning that normally, there is at least some nitrate for the plants too. Of course, most species will use ammonium (NH[sup]+[/sup][sub]4[/sub] not NH[sub]3[/sub]! i.e. not ammonia), etc. in preference to pure nitrate.

Ok so basically im set to leave the plants alone with the current co2 and light then.

What if i want to look at growing some moss on the bogwood i have and maybe some crypts you mentioned? (what exactly are crypts?)

As far as I'm aware you're not dosing any form of carbon/CO2.
To see improvements you can dose Excel.
Crypts=cryptocoryne. Google them. Very easy to look after

Or make your own CO[sub]2[/sub] set-up. I have never used Flourish products myself, but have heard good things about them.
Cryptocoryne are a very nice group of plants, some easier then others, as you get with all plant families. C. wendtii is considered to be one of the easiest Crypt. and is readily available. Do make yourself aware of what Crypt melt is before you start, it can be quite disastrous.

 

[Bluetooth]

What about the root tabs that were mentioned, would they leak their nutrients through the substrate into the water for other plants or would it be best to stick with a liquefied source of nutrients?

 

[KittyKat]

I personally prefer to use tablets as they tend to need less attention and it is more difficult to overdose. There are some plants which don't do well with them and others such as roots-not-in-substrate (Java fern, moss, Anubias) won't benefit as much from them.

There are pros and cons to both methods, so it's best to just choose what is best for you. The most important thing is to find the correct balance between light, CO[sub]2[/sub] and fertilisers.

 

[RadaR]

Unfortunately, Tom Barr is not someone I would trust with my fish.

Fine. But multimillionaires do with their huge fish tanks. I certainly would with all his tests.

Nitrate intolerance is not limited to salmon and trout, unfortunately, and the most common example I have come across in home aquaria are blue rams (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi) who don't always tolerate even 25ppm.

Could easily be proven. Is this nitrate level of 25ppm a result of allowing it to naturally build up in the tank via nitrifying bacteria or via inorganic KNO3 dosing?
I can almost say 100% that ramirezi would survive if the planted tank was dosed with enough KNO3 to bring the NO3 to 25ppm. Why? I've seen it.

I must say, I have never come across a case of CO[sub]2[/sub] poisoning myself.. but I guess if there is CO[sub]2[/sub] dosing and the tank is so stocked/lacking in light or fertiliser that the plants can not support the fish and there is no surface movement to encourage gas exchange with the atmosphere.. it could happen..

Yes or simply put as pressurized CO2 bubble rate is too high.

As for nitrate intoxication, most fish will survive as much as 250-500ppm

Yes.

but for good health, a long term limit of 50ppm or 25ppm is recommended for most fish in home aquaria,

Where has this theory come from? Fortunately the value of 50ppm would cover the nitrate demands of plants in most planted tanks.

Of course, most species will use ammonium (NH[sup]+[/sup][sub]4[/sub] not NH[sub]3[/sub]! i.e. not ammonia), etc. in preference to pure nitrate.

We'd rather not have algae thriving in our planted tanks therefore NO3 is favored.

 

[KittyKat]

Unfortunately, Tom Barr is not someone I would trust with my fish.

Fine. But multimillionaires do with their huge fish tanks. I certainly would with all his tests.

I have been trusted with tanks of similar size and of higher value too when working in the industry, and know people who were when they shouldn't have been too. I am not saying that he doesn't have a way of looking after his animals which works for him, all I am implying is that it is different from mine enough that it would not work.

Nitrate intolerance is not limited to salmon and trout, unfortunately, and the most common example I have come across in home aquaria are blue rams (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi) who don't always tolerate even 25ppm.

Could easily be proven. Is this nitrate level of 25ppm a result of allowing it to naturally build up in the tank via nitrifying bacteria or via inorganic KNO3 dosing?
I can almost say 100% that ramirezi would survive if the planted tank was dosed with enough KNO3 to bring the NO3 to 25ppm. Why? I've seen it.

Nitrate and potassium nitrate are not the same thing and I am referring to nitrate specifically.

but for good health, a long term limit of 50ppm or 25ppm is recommended for most fish in home aquaria,

Where has this theory come from? Fortunately the value of 50ppm would cover the nitrate demands of plants in most planted tanks.

From talking to many average (and in some cases not so average) fish keepers, reading many magazines and browsing many forums over many years. No, these are not values which dedicated plant enthusiasts stick to, but then again, I didn't say that they were. If you disagree that those are the recommended values which most commonly come up for average set-ups, do say what you think they are.

Of course, most species will use ammonium (NH[sup]+[/sup][sub]4[/sub] not NH[sub]3[/sub]! i.e. not ammonia), etc. in preference to pure nitrate.

We'd rather not have algae thriving in our planted tanks therefore NO3 is favored.

Of course it is, but regardless of what we want, both occur.

 

[Bluetooth]

So basically for good growth you need co2 up at around 25ppm stably, 2wpg or over lighting and plenty of nitrate?

Is there a tester for co2?

 

[loraxchick]

So basically for good growth you need co2 up at around 25ppm stably, 2wpg or over lighting and plenty of nitrate?

Is there a tester for co2?

if i were to suggest anything to the OP, id say keep the lighting LOW and get some "easy" to look after plants that will survive and grow well in low light. higher light=(generally) faster growth and MORE demand for co2 and ferts to "keep up" with the faster growth..basically,upping your lighting will only demand co2 injection of some method and more dosing. being "new" into the planted world id start with an "easy" set-up and limit the headaches that may occur with co2, dosing (EI), drop checkers, high flow demand, etc. (actually the equiptment could get pretty expensive, pretty fast...id rather have a good grasp of the planted world before dabbling with high tech tanks..if problems occur (ie algae) it may be disheartening and put the OP off altogether.
if you are guns drawn to have a brightly lit tank and want to try the high tech route, do lots of reading up on dosing ferts, methods of co2 injection, etc while you play with your current low-light set up and get the plants you currently have back into good health.
just my thoughts.

also Kitty- you are correct that most plant weights are in fact lead (in the states anyway). a good test- if you can scratch it with your fingernail, its lead. bad bad stuff!!! zinc counterparts are "better" in that they dont contain lead, which we know is pretty toxic stuff, but is fairly reactive with other substances (ie the trace minerals in tap water)- basically can leech nasty stuff over the long haul. (just like lead only to a less toxic-to-people extent)...better to just take the weights off altogether. again just my thought on the plant weight matter.
good luck with your plants
cheers

 

[Bluetooth]

Thanks everyone for their input, i have gleaned some very useful information and gained a good bit of knowledge from this, i am going to do exactly as you have said lorax, stay where i am and just work on what i have now.

I will no doubt post in this section more often and try to find out more info as i "grow up" as it were.

THanks everyone for the pointers they are much appreciated

 

[three-fingers]

DOC?

Dissolved organic carbon, usually very high in concentration in aquariums, especially mature aquariums, aquariums with plants and aquariums that receive no/infrequent water changes.

http/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolved_organic_carbon

Nitrate and potassium nitrate are not the same thing and I am referring to nitrate specifically.

Potassium nitrate is a source of nitrate...the nitrate ion from potassium nitrate is no different from the nitrate ion from any other nitrate salt, otherwise it wouldn't be a nitrate ion . They are the same thing .

We'd rather not have algae thriving in our planted tanks therefore NO3 is favored.

Of course it is, but regardless of what we want, both occur.

What RadaR is saying is that NO3 is safe to dose and plants can use it, while dosing extra ammonia for the plants would likely trigger algae growth (and possibly harm the fish, depending on how much was added and the system in question), while NO3 doesnt.

Of course both occur, although in some systems, plants can just immediately use up the ammonia before the bacteria get there, since they uptake it in preference to nitrate. With 0ppm ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings, the plants can often become deficient of nitrogen and begin to struggle, which is when algae begins to take over.

The EI dosing system is just a sure-fire way to make sure no nutrient is in short supply, by just dosing everything to safe high levels without having to do loads of tests, and a 50% water change weekly to stop anything getting too high.

 

[Dave Spencer]

I am not saying that he doesn't have a way of looking after his animals which works for him, all I am implying is that it is different from mine enough that it would not work.

Which particular method are you talking about?

Dave.