PH too low?

[Jan Cavalieri]

That's very good news about the Nitrites - you are doing much better than I am. I cannot get a rise or even a spike out of nitrites - 2 tanks will show some low level nitrites but not enough to get rid of the ammonia. As I'm sure you know don't worry about there being Nitrates in the water - those luckily don't have to be zero - I think 50 or less ppm is fairly common - higher and you really need a water change.

So I watch nitrates to see if I can put that water change off just ONE more day LOL. Right now I'm sick with bronchitis (and I'm on O2 24/7 so it's really bad news for me - refuse to go to the Dr or might end up in the hospital unless my O2 levels start to fall then I have no choice and I just die and get out of doing water changes forever - but my daughter would hate me for leaving it all to her - she's pregnant for the first time so it would be her husband), I had one water change due today and one due tomorrow but I also had full garbage pails in every significant room and a dirty kitty litter box - not fair to the cat. Didn't want my daughter to come over and change a cat litter box (I'm sure her husband wouldn't allow it). So I did all that and didn't die. Debating on whether to do a needed water change.

I just hate this. My tanks water is a mess I have 64 fish in 4 tanks - one I'm nursing constantly in a small tank due to what started as a water bladder disease and she hasn't eaten in 4 weeks - I continue to get down a little "pea soup with miralax" flavored with garlic oil but she still hasn't pooped and refuses all solid foods. Gourami's have such tiny mouth's I don't know if I even hit it, but with the garlic flavoring added she did keep her mouth open for me. Then she actually swam to the tank and took several breaths in a row (Gourami breath air like betta's) or she was possibly puking up the pea soup - it was impossible to tell. She rarely fights me at all and even wags her tale at me when she sees me so I don't know what goes through that fish brain.

I think you are nearing complete cycle - you just have a stubborn tank - but just assume the more cycles you go through the more bacteria you are creating. 1 week or less, perhaps a couple of days. Just make sure you have zero's for TWO days in a row before you consider yourself done. One day can always be a fluke.

 

[Byron]

Ok. Gave it a 50-60% water change last night and then dosed again after. Today the readings are PH 6.6, ammonia 1, nitrite 0, and nitrate 20. Water temp is 76.5

I took measurements again today. Everything looks exactly the same. Am I doing something wrong here? I’ve been attempting to cycle since October 1st. This seems like a lot of time has passed. I’m confused why my nitrites continue to read zero but my ammonia takes several days to drop.

It’s just the bacteria converting the ammonia haven't quite gotten to the point where they quickly convert the ammonia. So it’s like the tank is half cycled and I can’t get it over the hump.

Essjay has been leading you through this and I do not want to interfere. But as I am here...I wouldn't worry. The ammonia, do you happen to have chloramine being added to your city water? That has been known to show as minute levels of ammonia. As long as your pH remains below 7 this should not cause issues.

Re the pH lowering, this is not a problem provided you intend keeping soft water fish species. What is the GH and KH of the source water? This is part of the pH connection.

 

[Essjay]

76.1 and 6.6.

The temperature is a bit low for cycling - the bacteria grow faster at higher temperatures, so I would turn the heater up to get the water to 80 or 82 deg F. Make a note of the current setting first so you know where to turn it down to once the cycle has finished.

The pH is also a bit on the low side for optimal bacterial growth. Is this the tank or tap water pH? If it's tank, can you test your tap water, please - both freshly run and a sample that's been allowed to stand overnight.
Once we have the standing pH we can look at ways to go forwards.

Byron also reminded me - what is the ammonia level in your tap water? Some places use chlorine to disinfect drinking water, some places use chloramine. This is an ammonia and a chlorine joined together. Dechlorinators split it up and remove the chlorine, leaving the ammonia part in the water. A lot of dechlorinators also detoxify ammonia, though it will still show up in the ammonia test. The detoxification only lasts about 24 hours during which time it should be removed by the bacteria - in a cycled tank.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Our city does use chloramine. When I test tap water after standing overnight I get a reading of 1.5 ppm of Ammonia. The City Manager of the Water department said this shouldn't happen - all the ammonia should be used up in their water process. He is "looking into it" . Haven't heard back in weeks. The PH is also over the top of my test kit of 8.9 (City reports our water ph averages 9.4). GH is 10.6 with a range of 6.14-15.8. KH is 5.3 with a range of 2.6-7.7. My KH and GH typically have fallen into that range (I don't test for them very often because there wasn't a lot I could do about it)

So every water change adds more ammonia to my tank and raises the Ph way beyond acceptable levels. Using PHdown over a period of 2-3 days I can get it closer to 7 but then KH or GH interferes and it will start dropping to below what my test kit can read of 6.0. Then I get to use PHup and that usually does the trick and stops the fluctuations but by then it's time to do another water change.

Could any of this be responsible for why my ammonia/ammonium levels do NOT convert to nitrates. How do I get that bacteria back with fish in the tank? I use Seachem Stability which seem to say it does add beneficial bacteria but it hasn't done a darn thing as far as I can tell.

That's why I'm hesitant to tell him to do a water change before his tank is fully cycled unless he knows what is in his tap water. Adding too high of PH water or water with excess ammonia could mess up his cycling.

I'm starting to be convinced that Ammonium (which is what is making my ammonia readings so high) doesn't convert to nitrites because I see little or no nitrites in my tests. This has been going on for a couple of months at least - I'm so frustrated by of seeing the loss of my perfectly cycled tanks. I did everything right but it didn't produce enough bacteria or something killed it all. Now I'm faced with cycling a tank with fish in it - which again, is why I don't think he should do a water change yet or assume his tank is cycled too early. Of course, again, I did everything BY THE BOOK based on the instructions on this website and it all went to hell as soon as fish were added. Maybe if I had run a couple more cycles or started with higher levels of ammonia I would have produced sufficient bacteria to deal with the ammonia levels produced by the fish.

 

[Essjay]

If ammonia is removed from the tank by plants, bacteria etc, some of the ammonium will lose a proton and become ammonia. You can't remove just one of them. Think of a balance scale. If you have equal amounts of flour on both sides, the balance is level. But remove some flour from one side and the balance is not level. To keep it level you have to move some flour over from the other side. It's the same with ammonia/ammonium, if you remove some of one of them, some of the other will convert to keep the balance between them the same.

 

[Byron]

I have a general suggestion for this thread. It really is dealing with two related but very distinct problems, one being Jan's and the other Tylor's. I know I am getting confused trying to keep the issues distinct, and I can bet Tylor is as well. I suggest this thread focus only on Tylor's issue and not introduce other aspects/factors that involve Jan's issue but are not part of Tylor's.

 

[Tylor]

The temperature is a bit low for cycling - the bacteria grow faster at higher temperatures, so I would turn the heater up to get the water to 80 or 82 deg F. Make a note of the current setting first so you know where to turn it down to once the cycle has finished.

The pH is also a bit on the low side for optimal bacterial growth. Is this the tank or tap water pH? If it's tank, can you test your tap water, please - both freshly run and a sample that's been allowed to stand overnight.
Once we have the standing pH we can look at ways to go forwards.

Byron also reminded me - what is the ammonia level in your tap water? Some places use chlorine to disinfect drinking water, some places use chloramine. This is an ammonia and a chlorine joined together. Dechlorinators split it up and remove the chlorine, leaving the ammonia part in the water. A lot of dechlorinators also detoxify ammonia, though it will still show up in the ammonia test. The detoxification only lasts about 24 hours during which time it should be removed by the bacteria - in a cycled tank.

Ok. I took a fresh sample of water from the tap and tested for PH. It immediately went to 7.6 so I also tested a fresh sample with the high range PH and it shows 8.4. The ammonia sample from the tap shows 0. I have a sample that I will leave out over night and test PH tomorrow.

Todays measurement from the tank shows 76.8 temp, 6 PH, 0.5 Ammonia, 0 nitrites, and 40+ nitrate. The heater I have is 200w but didn’t have a gauge to control the temp so I did order a new one yesterday that will arrive tonight. I will try and bring the heat up to over 80.

The PH in the tank has dropped again from just a few days ago. Do I need to go ahead and conduct another water change? Last time I only went to 50%. Do I need to go more? If so, should I then dose ammonia back to 2-3 and test again in 24 hours?

 

[seangee]

My concern right now is nitrate at 40ppm just a few days after a 50% change. Have you tested your tap water for nitrates? That is a concern because it is too high for fish in the long term.

From the other info you have provided it sounds like you are good to go. Your suggestion of another water change and dosing back up to 2-3ppm ammonia will confirm this. If it gets to 0.25 or less in 24 hours with no nitrites the tank is ready. Personally I would do a 90% change to give you a better idea of what is going on in the tank / filter right now.

 

[Tylor]

My concern right now is nitrate at 40ppm just a few days after a 50% change. Have you tested your tap water for nitrates? That is a concern because it is too high for fish in the long term.

From the other info you have provided it sounds like you are good to go. Your suggestion of another water change and dosing back up to 2-3ppm ammonia will confirm this. If it gets to 0.25 or less in 24 hours with no nitrites the tank is ready. Personally I would do a 90% change to give you a better idea of what is going on in the tank / filter right now.

I just tested the tap water for nitrates and it was 0. My nitrates definitely dropped in the tank after the 50% water change. I dosed the tank back to 2 ammonia following the change. Nitrates have been rising every day since and the ammonia has been slowly dropping. My nitrites remained zero the entire time.

 

[Essjay]

Something is making nitrate. Your ammonia is disappearing, though not quite to zero. One of two things are happening to the ammonia - either it is going to nitrate or you have lots of plants which are removing it. The fact that nitrate is going up does suggest the first.

You say your nitrites have remained at zero. Did you use a bacterial supplement? I suppose it's possible for one to contain enough nitrite eaters to remove nitrite as soon as it was made. Or that the nitrite tester is faulty.

Silly question. Are you using the API liquid nitrite tester? There are reports that when nitrite is extremely high, it doesn't seem to work properly. The way to check this is by putting about one fifth tank water and four fifths tap water in the tube and test that. It will either still show the blue ofzero, or purple. But at least you'll have eliminated one possibility

 

[Tylor]

Something is making nitrate. Your ammonia is disappearing, though not quite to zero. One of two things are happening to the ammonia - either it is going to nitrate or you have lots of plants which are removing it. The fact that nitrate is going up does suggest the first.

You say your nitrites have remained at zero. Did you use a bacterial supplement? I suppose it's possible for one to contain enough nitrite eaters to remove nitrite as soon as it was made. Or that the nitrite tester is faulty.

Silly question. Are you using the API liquid nitrite tester? There are reports that when nitrite is extremely high, it doesn't seem to work properly. The way to check this is by putting about one fifth tank water and four fifths tap water in the tube and test that. It will either still show the blue ofzero, or purple. But at least you'll have eliminated one possibility

I just tested the tap water for nitrates and it was 0. My nitrates definitely dropped in the tank after the 50% water change. I dosed the tank back to 2 ammonia following the change. Nitrates have been rising every day since and the ammonia has been slowly dropping. My nitrites remained zero the entire time.

I tested the sample from the tap that was left out overnight. It’s still showing 8.4

 

[Tylor]

Today’s readings:

PH 6
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 40+ (it’s difficult to read the difference between 40 and 80 on the chart)
temp 83 degrees

There are no live plants in this tank. Only gravel and decorations.


At this point I am debating between giving the tank a 90% water change and then dosing ammonia back to 2-3ppm and measuring in 24 hours or no water change but dosing ammonia back to 2-3ppm and testing in 24 hours. Which, if either, should I try?

 

[Byron]

I tested the sample from the tap that was left out overnight. It’s still showing 8.4

Was this with the normal range test or the high range test, or both? Previously you were getting very different results (not uncommon) and it is important to pin down which because the wrong test for your specific water will always give inaccurate results.

 

[Tylor]

Was this with the normal range test or the high range test, or both? Previously you were getting very different results (not uncommon) and it is important to pin down which because the wrong test for your specific water will always give inaccurate results.

High range only on the sample left over night.

 

[Byron]

High range only on the sample left over night.

Can you test this overnight sample with the normal range Ph test?

Also, I asked previously about GH and KH but so far these have not been provided. We must know these values in order to deal with the pH issue as they are connected.

Also, I may have mentioned this but maybe in another thread so I'll repeat, is your water authority adding anything to raise pH?