Pardalis Flicking/leaping

[ciaranm]

My Pardalis has been doing some flicking actions, like short spasms. It's usually near the big rock in the tank. My first thought was maybe a short in the tank heater but no other fish are reacting to it if it is. Then I thought maybe some sort of parasite making it itch, but still no other fish are affected, could still be that though I suppose. I then wondered if he was displaying to the chaetostoma that rules the big rock with an iron fin! Anyway yesterday he leaped out of the water and crashed into the lid. Ideas or advice?

ph 7.4, nitrite 0 ammonia 0, nitrate 5-10ppm temp 25-26c tankmates 1 sucking loach 1 chaetostoma, 2 leopard bush fish and 2 sturisoma. 240 litre

 

[snazy]

I don't know, but it's not a good sign I suppose. I have never seen my pleco flicking and if he does, he'll make a mess out of the tank with his tail. Something is annoying him. It doesn't have to be parasites but it's a possibility. Do a nice water change in case it's something in the water. Have you changed or added anything recently maybe?

 

[ciaranm]

I've done a water change but I haven't seen him do it today. Hopefully whatever it is has passed. I doubt it though.
Additions before he began doing it were some plants from a friends tank. He isn't experiencing any problems with his fish.
It's a mystery, I think I'll treat for ich just in case with temp and salt but he's been doing it for longer than ich life cycle and I haven't seen any white spots.
I'm truly at a loss.

 

[snazy]

Why would you treat for ich if you don't know it's ich?

 

[ciaranm]

Because I read on skeptical aquarist @ http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/ichthyophthirius

"Treating Ich. First advice: Catch Ich early. If you notice fishes "flashing" and scraping against rocks as if their gills were being bitten, you have a strong presumption that some external parasite is at work. Labored breathing, loss of appetite, and listless hiding are all signs of more advanced malaise that should be danger signals that something is going wrong for that fish. Don't wait for the matured cysts to show on the fishes' fins and body."

I do see what you're saying though, why give them the stress if it's unnecessary?
And the only symptom I've seen is the "flashing" and scraping.
These are things that I have been thinking about and I haven't rushed to do it, I have only started to raise the temp so far (currently at 27.1c) so nothing drastic.
I suppose I'm thinking about the ich treatment because it's either do that or do nothing at the moment

 

[snazy]

I suppose I'm thinking about the ich treatment because it's either do that or do nothing at the moment

It's hard sometimes when you feel there's something wrong and you want to stop it but you don't know how but don't let that make you rush into decisions as any treatment will stress the fish and if they are not sick, they will get sick. High temperatures will speed up the cycle of parasites but make sure your tank is well oxygenated as you can suffocate the fish in too high temperature, add an air pump and maybe lower the water level so the filter creates more movement there.
You would think the cysts would have shown up by now if it was ich and would have also affected the rest of the fish too. How long has he been doing it for? Also, fish do have immune system that can fight off a lot of stuff by themselves and no stress, perfect water quality is the best way to go, that's why I asked if you did and do regular weekly water changes of 30-50%?
Salt is dangerous for long periods of time on fish like plecos specifically so be careful. Mine has lived in 1 tbsp per 5 gallon for three weeks with no problem when I quarantined him and some guppies a year ago after purchasing them but generally that doesn't seem to be the case for most people. So if you go the salt treatment route, make sure you melt the salt first in some tank water and start from a very low dose, increasing with time to give time to the fish to get used to. Also, some fish are very salt intolerant, so reseach them before you even start.

 

[ciaranm]

I really appreciate the time and effort you're taking to help me and my fish.
As far as water changes go it is a walstad/naturally planted tank so they are minimal, though a water change is the first thing if I have any issues. Also having so many plants in the tank it is very oxygenated and I also have an airline in there. And there are only 7 fish in there, none of which are very large.
I will try and find some information on the species I have and what sort of salinity they can handle. I can't believe I hadn't thought of checking that. I have looked at their preferred temp and none of them are in the higher ranges so, that has put me off a bit.
He's been doing it for about a fortnight, maybe 10 days. It's the leap into the lid that's really made me think I needed to take action. Although that could have been anything, maybe something gave him a nip??? I don't know but, he'd been flicking moments before.
After reading your posts I think I could just be worrying too much and putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with disease.
I'm going to turn the temp back down and give it a few more days, see if things change one way or the other.
Thank you. I'll let you know how I get on and any more ideas or advice would be appreciated.

 

[snazy]

Diana Walstad method? I always wanted to try that but don't have the patience. Plecos going for air to the surface is normal though. Mine does it from time to time. And if you find the time do, let us know how you get on.
Also, the plants will certainly not like the salt so in a tank that depends solely on the plants to filter and provide oxygen it's a risky thing to do.

 

[ciaranm]

I'd recommend the Wasltad method. The first few months are the worst but, once everything has reached equilibrium it's a great feeling. After that it's just gardening really.
I'm used to him going up for a gulp of air but this leap was different, I swear if there hadn't been a lid on he'd have gone a foot into the air.
Yeah, I probably would lose some of the more sensitive plants and have some die back but I'd argue that they are not the sole filtration in the tank and that the soil, gravel, wood and rocks also act as a filter and at the end of it, the fish is more important. As much as the plants look nice and do a great job he's the one we think of as a pet. If it came to it I could always pull some cycled media from another tank and put an internal filter in while the plants grew back, but to be honest I don't think it would come to that. Well, let's hope it doesn't anyway.

 

[snazy]

Normally a fish that tries to jump out the tank is not happy with something in the water. Maybe because of the type of tank it is it has accumulated some heavy metals or something of the sort over time? I am guessing you are mostly topping up with tap water?
Or is it possible the tank got contaminated with something?

 

[ciaranm]

Now that's got me thinking.
We used diatomaceous earth to de-flea the front room because spray stuff is harmful to fish. I reckon there's a chance it could be the diatoms irritating him.
Or could it be fungicides or pesticides off veg that hasn't been washed properly?
Mmmmm, It's a lot to ponder. Another water change in the morning and I'll spend more time watching him and less time reading about it.
Talking of which, yes I use tap water.

 

[snazy]

That's quite possible indeed. If you have a way running carbon in it for a couple of days additionally it should also help.

 

[ciaranm]

Thought I'd pop in and give you an update.
Well, I woke up yesterday to a nightmare. Something had gone off in the night, the powerhead was out of place and the inlet sponge had come off. One of my little ctenompoma was stuck in the inlet, dead. I'm still totally gutted about it. Every fish in the tank seemed pretty shook up and nervous. God knows what happened.
I pressed on with the water change and took about 50% out. I took the opportunity to rearrange part of the tank that I hadn't really liked since day one. After all the disturbance every fish was hidden and they didn't even come out for some wafers but, they're all eating today .
Now the remaining ctenopoma is just swimming around the same part of the tank in little up and down and round and round movements, never going a foot away from the corner where its friend died. It's absolutely heartbreaking to watch.
I haven't seen the pardalis flicking since, fingers crossed the large water change has worked. If it has then I owe you a lot for helping me make the decision not to treat for ich.
My new dilemma is do I replace the ctenopoma or will the remaining one reject it?

 

[snazy]

Sorry to hear that. It always gets worse before it gets better... Not sure about the ctenopoma, I never kept these, poor fish must be heartbroken. It was probably trying to help his friend.

 

[snazy]

How are the fish coming along?