pain...

[The-Wolf]

Just like I had said in my first reply.

It has to come down to your personal view
of wether or not fish feel pain. Again I'll say
personally I do belive that fish feel pain, and I'll add
that I belive ALL animals feel pain.

 

[Bignose]

I do not think that it has to come down to just personal beliefs. Even the most modern articles (2004) say that there just has not been a great deal of work done studying the specific question of whether fish feel pain and suffering. This does not mean that more work cannot be done in the future to get a better grasp on the question.

And, unfortunatly, then the question of where the investigator got their funding becomes a valid one. For the longest time, the absolute best predictor of the results of a study on global warming was to loook at the funding source.

So, it is a fair question to ask whether Rose came to his conclusion to support the fisheries, and what are the funding sources of the Chadroo et al. group?

But, assuming in the long run, that science can be objective, I think that in time this question can be answered.

 

[Teelie]

I am not qualified to judge the quality of any of these works, but I think it is extremely ignorant to ignore that there is evidence to support both sides of the argument.

I'm not ignoring anything, however I don't take every claim as the truth and until today, no one has posted that article, which doesn't even conclude that. It concludes it's possible. There is no proof they feel pain, there is no proof they don't but the weight is higher on they don't and until there's something more solid than that article which suggests they might, I'm still not convinced, no matter how ignorant you may call it.

 

[s10moor]

I'll bet it hurts alot when some poor sap gets chased down by a Grizzley bear and eaten too but you don't hold it against the bear; You hjold it against that Idiot Timmothy Treadwell.

i know ive completely missed the point but

 

[Bignose]

Well, it appears to me to be word choice. Rose choses to believe fish do not expereince pain and suffering, therefore they can't'. Chandroo et al. details a fair amount of evidence, and say that fish are more likely than not (to feel pain and suffering).

You cannot make a decision based on Rose's confident wording, and the more tentative wording of the other articles. In fact, because of the evidence of the other articles, isn't it fair to put Rose's confidence to question? How can he be so sure? If he has further definative evidence, why hasn't it been brought to light?
The more tentative word choices are because the answer is not definative, and they are basing their decisions on what they consider the best evidence they have at hand. New evidence may be just a single experiment away.

Teelie, I am not trying to insult you, just pointing out that you seemed unwilling to accept that there is evidence to support the fish feels pain position.

... I think it should be pointed out that several of you are taking the opposite point of assuming fish have the ability to feel pain even though there's so far no proof for it.

And that was after I posted the Oidtmann and Hoffmann article that also concluded that fish have the ability to feel pain.

I doubt that there will ever be conclusive proof, simply because we, as humans, have to interpret fish behavior. They cannot communicate directly with us what they are experiencing. That, however, should not prevent us from attempting to interpret their behavior.

You are free to believe either position, I am just pointing out that compelling evidence supports either side.

 

[Synirr]

What I think we need is to monitor the brainwaves of a fish while it is being submitted to various sorts of stimuli. Has this been done yet? If not, why not?

 

[Teelie]

What I think we need is to monitor the brainwaves of a fish while it is being submitted to various sorts of stimuli. Has this been done yet? If not, why not?

Ironic way to find out if they can feel pain by torturing them to see the reaction.

 

[Opcn]

Teelie all of the scientific evidence I brought to the table is backed up by science on every level (Fish have the same pain receptors and they have endorphens and they havebrains and humans react with reflexes) the only argument I brought fourth is that it is faulty logic to assume that fish dont precieve Pain because they are purely reflex driven animals Because (as I clearly pointed out) they are not reflex driven. If you have holes to poke in my argument go right ahead but not reading is a choice that shows your unwillingess to face pure unadultarated logic. All science is bassed apon logic I just pointed ut where others where overlooking the truth.

 

[Bignose]

Teelie, I dont think a single one of the researchers, especially the ones who belive that fish do indeed suffer, have tortured the fish at all. They have used very mild electric shocks, releasing alarm phermones, quickly showing a model or silhouette of a predator, or in the rainbow trout article I mentioned above, they dip a net into the water. I dont consider any of these torture. What is it doing is catloging the responses and behavior and how the fish learn.