pain...

[arj]

Do fish feel pain? And do fish sweat?

 

[The-Wolf]

As far as the feeling pain, that is a highly debated topic in the scientific community
personally I belive that all animals feel pain, even thought it may not be percived as what we would consider pain.

and as for fish sweat no the purpose of sweating is to cool the body down as is panting for dogs and flapping of the ears on elephants. fish sweat!

 

[Teelie]

They can sense pain but they don't feel pain. To feel pain requires a higher level of brain function than fish have. Pain is mostly a psychological function as opposed to a physical one in the sense we're talking about here.

 

[Tempestuousfury]

Pain is just a deterrent for the fish. It's just to tell the fish that somehting is attacking it and that it should attempt to flee. They do feel it, but not to the same degree as we do.

 

[Rybka]

That's what I think as well...but as i was reading the weekend paper once I read that these greens/animal rights people are trying to ban recreational fishing due to the pain that they experience with the hook. They said that the only reason that we don't consider it is because they make no sound because they have no voice box.

 

[NinjaSmurf]

Oh please green people, If I beat the living snot out of a mute or a mime I'd know they were feeling it, even if they didn't scream like other people. Duh. That's like those inner city kids who have their dads or older brothers who fight dogs telling them they don't feel pain. Hello? Do these people have a mind of their own? Just because I buy milk at the store doesn't mean I think milk is made at the store... What happened to common sense???

What, they think people think if it doesn't make noise it can't feel pain? Is that what people think?? Cause if it was, you think there would be a lot more missing mimes, wouldn't you?



*You stuck in a box? I'll stuff you in a box you little piece of...*

 

[Teelie]

Obviously you've missed the great debates on this with scientific fact pointing to fish not feeling pain, and instad choose the humanizing route where you apply human characteristics to an animal that doesn't have the capacity. Just in case you've missed it, here is an article on fish not feeling pain.

 

[Bignose]

Teelie, do you know the author of that work, Rose? The reason I ask is that I am wondering if that piece has been published anywhere, and perhaps even more critically, is it published in a peer-reviewed journal? That is, fellow fish biologists and fish neuroscientists read the article and agree that the research and opinions presented in it are well-founded. Peer-review may not be the best way to know the quality of a work, but it is the standard by which scientific work is judged today.

My point is that, unless this is a published work, it is really a collection of opinions, not definative in any way. The author doesn't reference any of his own work (if there is any) on this subject, either. In fact, the references appear to be largely limited to human systems, with only a few on fish's systems. Which makes me think that more than likely a lot more work in this area is needed.

And, here is an article that disagrees with a lot of what Rose says. Oidtmann B, and Hoffman RW. "Pain and suffering in fish" BERLINER UND MUNCHENER TIERARZTLICHE WOCHENSCHRIFT, vol 114, issue 7-8, jul-aug 2001. pages 277-282.

Here is the abstract of that article "The question on the capability of fish to feel pain and of suffering are still subject of discussion nowadays. In the article presented, the information available in the literature to date is summarised. Based on this knowledge, the conclusion is drawn that fish are capable of feeling pain and that they are able to suffer in the sense of the word as used in the German animal welfare law."

So, in conclusion, I think that the question is a valuable one to debate, but you cannot take any one source as definitive -- neither the Oidtmann and Hoffman work nor the Rose work.

 

[Opcn]

The Crux of the whole Fish "dont Precieve pain like we do" argument is based on short sighted and faulty logic. I lknow I'm repeating someone But I came up with this on my own (just shows how the two+ of us think alike) before reading any ost about fish pain.

Okay starting from the ground up.

Fish have the same chemo receptors that we do and they send pain signals throught the same type of nerve to the same part of the Central Nervouse system (the brain) So they deffinitly feel pain However they release the same endorphens that we do which produces the same "shock" in them that it does in us so a quick death is not a painful one.

Now onto preception. The main argument regarding preception is that fish act on instinct alone and that the pain is simply another stimulus to initiate a sequence of rapid movements to distance themselves from the stimulus. By this logic Humans dont feel pain when we burn our selves because there is a quick reflex reaction (the information never even makes it to the brain it stops at the spine) Now once we are removed from the stimulus we are free to go about our lives right ... WRONG; Our bodies punish us with pain they train us not to be stupid again. Connections form withing our brains that prevent us from useing a red hot iron skillet as a hand warmer and we dont use the skillet as a hand warmer; you may think thet we use our higher brain function to remember not to touch red hot things but acctually we dont, its stored in the most primitive regions of our memory and we use our higher brain function to figure out how not to touch Hot stuff in the future.

Now a whole bnch of you are probably thinking "well our fish dont learn do they so they wouldnt need to experience pain" Well that to is a falasy Go open up the lid to your fishtank and tell me the fish dont start acting differently expecting food. Put the net in and tell me that they dont run in fear but leave the net in for a week and watch them swim into it to eat. The fact of the matter is that they do learn and there fore they have and evolutionary (Or creationary if you are so inclined) reason to require that pain be a punishment for ignorance and since no fish is highly evolved enough to know every thing it ever will need to know chances are your fish feels pain Just like you.

I do fish and I ee nothing wrong with it. I'll bet it hurts alot when some poor sap gets chased down by a Grizzley bear and eaten too but you don't hold it against the bear; You hjold it against that Idiot Timmothy Treadwell.

 

[Rybka]

I hope you all aren't getting aggresive with what i wrote....

 

[Teelie]

It has been peer reviewed so far as I know, yes and as far as I know, most scientists accept it as true. And no offense, opcn, but until you can back that with some real science, I won't accept it.

 

[Bignose]

Ok, I'll bite. If it has been peer reviewed, can you please give me a reference? It does not have to be that exact work, but an article by that author on the subject of fish pain. The article I referenced was in a peer-reviewed international journal of veterinary science -- and again, it is not the best way to determine the quality of the work, but in our current system that means it has been validated. Otherwise, no matter what the credientials are (Dr. PhD. M.D. etc) it is still just a collection of opinions, and does not represent research.

 

[sinistral]

Bignose, I'll bite too I have my own thoughts about this debate which I will reserve for now...

James D. Rose is a neurobiologist at the University of Wyoming. This is a link to a pdf file from the UW web page to Dr. Rose's article entitled: The Neurobehavioral Nature of Fishes and the Question of Awareness and Pain. It is a review article. I am not sure about the origin of the article Teelie linked.

He published this article in a journal called "Reviews in Fisheries Science". His CV lists a number of basic research articles in various neurobehavioral journals. I do not know if this particular journal is peer-reviewed. Here is a link to the crc journal web page with a blurb about this journal.

Ok, ok, I will insert my opinion. I think it's interesting (without further comment) that this particular article was published in a journal dedicated to fisheries science. I also find it interesting that Dr. Rose is taking a rather philosophical (maybe even semantic), yet definitive perspective on an issue that has broad ramifications for the fishing industry and environmental lobbies.

 

[Teelie]

I'll find something though I think it should be pointed out that several of you are taking the opposite point of assuming fish have the ability to feel pain even though there's so far no proof for it.

 

[Bignose]

Here is a very recent article Yue, Moccia and Duncan, Applied Animal Behavior Science 2004, that talks about training trout, and their response to fear.

From Yue et al. 2004:

Although the term ‘fear’ is used in everyday vernacular to describe the negative affect that
most animals are assumed to feel during, or in anticipation of, some frightening stimulus,
this term is more cautiously used today when referring to fish. This is partly due to the disbelief,
by some, that fish have the capability to experience conscious feelings. Rose (2002)
believes that conscious experiences like fear and pain are neurological impossibilities, due
to the lack of a neocortex in fish—the presumed place where consciousness dwells in higher
vertebrates. He therefore proposed that behavioural responses to noxious stimuli are separate
from psychological experiences (of fear for example)—behavioural responses to frightening
or aversive stimuli are merely reflexive responses and are not accompanied by a negative
feeling. Nonetheless, the term ‘fear’ has been widely used to describe fish behaviour for
some time (Pinckney, 1967; Gallon, 1972; Huntingford, 1990; Ledoux, 1990; Noakes and
Baylis, 1990). Others have put forth the idea that fish derive conscious experiences through
some mechanism other than the neocortically based consciousness of humans and other
highly evolved mammals (Verheijen and Flight, 1997). Recent anatomical, physiological,
neuropharmacological and behavioural data suggest that fish are likely to feel subjective
experiences, like fear, in much the same manner as tetrapods. A full review of
this evidence is beyond the scope of this paper, but briefly, the major argument lies in
the fact that the neuroanatomical structure and function between fish and higher vertebrates
are more similar than previously thought (Rakic and Kornack, 2001; Chandroo et al.,
2004).

So, there is quite a debate going on. But, it appears to me that you cannot just dismiss the research by

taking the opposite point of assuming fish have the ability to feel pain even though there's so far no proof for it.

There appear to be several articles, Rakic and Kornack, and the Chandroo et al., that show that fish may in fact have the brain structure etc. necessary to feel pain.

Here is the reference to the Chandroo et al. article
Title: Can fish suffer?: perspectives on sentience, pain, fear and stress
Author(s): Chandroo KP, Duncan IJH, Moccia RD
Source: APPLIED ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR SCIENCE 86 (3-4): 225-250 JUN 2004

I am not qualified to judge the quality of any of these works, but I think it is extremely ignorant to ignore that there is evidence to support both sides of the argument.