Pain

[andywg]

""I am willing to bet you haven't handled and trained that many fish, or non mammals for that matter. Remember that mammals will all contain the area of the brain in which we process pain, and therefore can quite conceivably feel pain. A fish does not have the area of the brain that deals with pain, leading to the belief that they cannot feel it "".


OK I dont wishto repeat myself, but there is physical evidence that fish do indeed feel pain, using a different part of their brain.

And the peer review of that research pointed out (just as I do above) that while the research in Scotland proves that fish feel the physical side of pain (never disputed by me) at no point does the article you have linked to cover the point on fish feeling pain as an emotional aspect except to say:

James Rose, a fisherman and a professor in the University of Wyoming's Department of Zoology and Physiology, wrote a scathing critique of Sneddon's findings, which appeared on the university Web site, claiming that they contained poor methodology and misinterpreted the data. The key to his objections centered around how animals perceive pain. He cited the Seattle-based International Association for the Study of Pain, which defines pain as "an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage..." And, he said, the signals sent by nociceptors are not in themselves pain.

Note the last sentance there.

As I stated before, in scientific terms, the jury is very much out.

 

[merry78]

Andywg- you are absolutely correct, my experience has been with mammals.

Nurglespuss- I realise Masson's work is considered to be dubious...especially after the whole Freudian archives fiasco.

I am very interested in this debate......i freely admit that i am a sooky anthropomorphic wussbag who believes in karma as it applies to the whole of life, not just humans. I realise this discredits me and am fine with that! (actually have a degree in animal science, so do respect and understand the scientific perspective.)

More info/perspectives from the world of science please...very interested!

 

[nurglespuss]

Ahhhh now your refering to emotions.

Thats a bit easier, fish dont have emotions, and neither does any other animal except humans (and even then we only have emotions because we are able to conjour up a word).

Everything is a reaction.

Yes I'm familiar with pain tests, the most important of which are conducted by measuring hormone regulation and production, then following the cues to brain activity.

This debate is somewhat confusing, as a scientist, for me, the answer is simple (for the question): Yes - fish feel pain.

However, if the meaning of the question really translates as 'are fish emotionally influenced by (now noxious is not quite right btw ) negative stimulae' then the answer is no.

I also cannot wait for the scientific forum, on whcih I will never enter a debate, merely show my findings

And yeah, we all have mixed perspectives, and should respect each others opinions and realise that no-one is EVER 100% right :>:>

 

[andywg]

Ahhhh now your refering to emotions.

Nope. Still pain.

This debate is somewhat confusing, as a scientist, for me, the answer is simple (for the question): Yes - fish feel pain.

However, if the meaning of the question really translates as 'are fish emotionally influenced by (now noxious is not quite right btw ) negative stimulae' then the answer is no.

How strange, the IASP seems to disagree (from wiki):

Pain is defined as “an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damageâ€￾ - International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP). Scientifically, pain (a subjective experience) is separate and distinct from nociception, the system which carries information, about inflammation, damage or near-damage in tissue, to the spinal cord and brain.

They indicate that pain is the emotional response (in scientific terms) and not nociception (which you are describing as pain).

 

[rainbowpuddle]

Emotions are just a combination of ions, electricity, chimicals ect which all living things have in some combination, its how they survive. Rats get depressed. To think only humans feel emotions implies we are some sort of magical beings. Emotions are driven by phisical actions.

I feel guilty for eating meat and drinking milk because of the stress (fight or flight chemical response) and pain (sensation carried by ions telling the feeler to remove the stimuls) animals have suffered but I feel less guilty about eating fish. Maybe I think fish suffer less but even if they dont feel as mamals do I think we should assume there are situations the fish dislikes because its wireing is telling it it is in danger.