Open Cichlid Forum All Welcome

[Murrayjane]

I would like to open this discussion with a question. I currently have 8 juvenile Cichlid's (1) Green Terror (2) Firemouths (1) Linvingston (2) Peacocks (1) Jewel (1) Jaguar. My question is if all this fish thrive and reach their true size potential, how big of a tank would I need to have in order for them to live relatively comfortably together. They are all juveniles and currently in a 55 gallon.

My thoughts for this is a range between 95-135 minimum. Is this correct?

Please feel free to also give any thoughts on overstocking to reduce territorial tension/aggression.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

The only fish I would be worried about is the Jewel. I had one of these once. Fish from hell. As an adult, they are extremely territorial and aggressive. It will almost certainly kill your Green Terror.

If I am not mistaken, Peacocks are african cichlids. From Lake Malawi..not good for your mix of fish.

The tank size you are planning would almost certainly make your fish very happy.

 

[Davo86]

As said the main issue is incompatibility, but to answer your question the jag alone would need close to 100g if male. These can be highly aggressive and so a potential 16" fish will ultimately decide If it wants tankmates. A lot don't...

Ultimately you need to rethink the stocking but IMO for this to work you'll need at least 200g

 

[Dieses Madchen]

As said the main issue is incompatibility, but to answer your question the jag alone would need close to 100g if male. These can be highly aggressive and so a potential 16" fish will ultimately decide If it wants tankmates. A lot don't...

Ultimately you need to rethink the stocking but IMO for this to work you'll need at least 200g

Jags get that big?!?!

 

[Davo86]

The only fish I would be worried about is the Jewel. I had one of these once. Fish from hell. As an adult, they are extremely territorial and aggressive. It will almost certainly kill your Green Terror.

Even a psycho jewel would be no match for most adult GTs

Jags get that big?!?!

Males can potentially. females are usually much smaller at around 8-10"

 

[MBOU]

I think in the long run.. the Firemouths at least will be mincemeat, the peacocks too maybe because they are generally happy to be left alone and leave everything else alone, depends on species...

But the fish all have different requirements...

With a mix of malawi mbuna and peacocks and then the more gentle south americans and then the big mean american cichlids too.

Its kind of like shutting a cat and dog and a rat in a room as babies and hoping they will all get on great as adults too....

 

[Dieses Madchen]

The only fish I would be worried about is the Jewel. I had one of these once. Fish from hell. As an adult, they are extremely territorial and aggressive. It will almost certainly kill your Green Terror.

Even a psycho jewel would be no match for most adult GTs

I didn't have the heart to take pictures of what my jewel did to my first green terror lol. But I think there was something mentally wrong with my jewel.

 

[fishprotector]

The only fish I would be worried about is the Jewel. I had one of these once. Fish from hell. As an adult, they are extremely territorial and aggressive. It will almost certainly kill your Green Terror.

Even a psycho jewel would be no match for most adult GTs

I didn't have the heart to take pictures of what my jewel did to my first green terror lol. But I think there was something mentally wrong with my jewel.

On the other hand, my Jewel is a push over. He often shares a cave with my female JD and I have never once seen him step out of line. I often think that is because I have had him from well under an inch in length as I believe that growing fish together helps compatibility.

 

[Murrayjane]

"Its kind of like shutting a cat and dog and a rat in a room as babies and hoping they will all get on great as adults too...."

MBOU

I think these videos may promote some interest for you.

http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=D85yrIgA4Nk

http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfdCEy7Y1-E


I understand that an upgrade to my tank is inevitable and necessary. I also realize that mixing african cichlids with american cichlids isn't really intelligent due to their different water requirements and aggression levels. However, I believe that with a big enough tank, all of these fish could live throughout their adulthood relatively harmoniously. I am also aware that an adult jaguar alone will require around 95-100 gallons solo. This leaves me with two choices: I either remove the jaguar from this tank, or find another way to keep them harmonious. (this is what began my forum question!) Still, I am confident that these fish could all live together without causing too much of a hassle. It will simply require me to ensure their happiness, which is dependent on giving them plenty of tank space, food, and water changes.

Overall, I must say that I am disappointed with the current responses I have received on this forum. First of all, Jewel cichlid's are usually pretty active, yet in terms of their aggression, they are rather docile fish and although they do possess some aggression due to the anxiousness in developing territories, most cichlids are alike in this. (So I would agree that you had a very unusual case with your GT and Jewel) I can fix this problem by either overstocking the tank, or providing them a sufficient amount of hiding spaces. Secondly, as I said, I am aware that I have made a rather bold, maybe unintelligent move in mixing the africans with the americans, yet, as many like to compare fish temperament as being very similar to people, I am confident that they are more than capable to co-exist. The worst that can happen is one or two of them will show signs of abuse, in which case I must make the choice of purchasing a separate tank for them or return them to the fish store, which would certainly seal their fate.

The decent suggestion thus far was getting a 200 gallon tank. This still seems a little extreme to me as I have seen plenty of home aquariums smaller in size, containing the same, if not more amount of aggressive fish. I believe even with the maximum size of all of my fish, a 135 gallon plus would be sufficient. So I am fine to change the subject in this forum, as it seems to me that the current responses have been rather overly cautious when it comes to fish keeping.

Am I on my own with this assertion? Or would others agree with the things I have said.

 

[Davo86]

Have a search through for some of nellys old threads, he had a 150g with a jag, two oscars, a gt plus a few dithers large tinfoils and silver sharks if I remember right? These all lived together fine for a couple of years before the jag matured and snapped - resulting in some horrific damage to the 14" oscars almost overnight

This is a prime example of what you can expect from 99% of jaguar cichlids,

My largest tank is 125g and tbh I dont personally believe it is large enough for just a jag and a gt to cohabit peacefully longterm, nevermind the other species mentioned.

 

[Wills]

Got to agree with the advice you have been given. Mixing these cichlids is not a good idea - one of the biggest problems you are going to have is in around 18 months to two years time when all of the fish have hit sexual maturity (it happens younger in some) You have so many types of cichlid in there that you have to break it down to an anatomical level - the Jag by far has the strongest jaw - the Firemouth would not stand a chance. The GT again a very strong fish but not sure how it would fare against a jag, though it might work.

The Jags jaw is structured to snap fish in half, its the same for all the Parachromis. They are predators and though may not take cichlids as food should they need to kill them for territory (as they judge it) it will happen. Parachromis are pretty much top of the food chain due to this in a lot of instances.

Also there are some Jags on the net on some other forums that are hitting 19 inches so.... lets not assume 16 is massive haha!!

The Jewel - they just are aggressive everyone says they are going to be fine and they never are. They are voracious, they will take big snaps and little snaps grabbing where they can doing major damage - a lot of people report finding them hanging off gill plats of other fish....

I have little experience with africans so cant really comment on the Livingstoni and the Peacocks but as an American purist I would not do it. Africans NEED the high Ph for long life and it is easy to provide through the substrate and rockwork. Some of the Americans you have here would appreciate it but would prefer the nutral tank - removing the high ph reduces the levels of calcium developed by some fish and when growing can cause mega issues a good example is Nicaraguans (all be it an American, but Ill stick to what I know) who needs a high ph otherwise youngsters often develop lumpy heads along the neck kind of area - and an other by the by thing is although a central american cichlid they can take no abuse what so ever, incredibly squishy fish though they will start fights they rarely win them if things kick off as they have no jaw strength like the jags.


Rather than try and guestimate a tank size for these its better to suggest two or more tanks.

Tank 1 - in the region of 180 gallons (6x2x2) minimum for the Jag - the GT might work here - maybe the Jewel could fit in. But I would leave the Firemouths out.

Tank 2 - Africans, cant comment on size but I would go as big as possible

and then if you can
Tank 3 - for either the Firemouths or Jewel.

And then stock accordingly around the fish you keep. Plan inteligently rather than chuck in a group of fish, few, if any people would recommend...

Hope that helps
Wills

 

[onidrase]

overstocking to reduce territorial aggression is only a tactic used in mbuna tanks. It doesn't work in SA tanks, all you'll have is a bunch of dying, stressed out fish.

I'm gonna agree with wills here, there is no way that all these fish will live comfortably with each other. The firemouths and peacock will be the first to die.

My GT was hitting his maturity aggression stage at about 6 months old, he was trying to rip everything apart. Can't comment on when the jag is gonna snap, but they are given a hefty reputation.

 

[Murrayjane]

Thank you for the thoughtful responses. I find these explanations to be very justified. I am not sure exactly what I should do to completely rectify this problem. I am now determined to remove the africans and the jaguar and exchange them for some less aggressive yet sturdy/hardy fish. That would leave the Green Terror, 2 Firemouths, EB-Dempsey, and the Jewel, along with the replacement(s). Although I am determined to upgrade the tank, this cannot be done for another 6 months or so and I simply won't have the space for 2 large tanks.

As Wills suggested, instead of estimating how much space I will need, I need to ensure that I have a compatible tank. So due to the concerns regarding the Jewel, if I also excluded him, I would think that the Green Terror, EB-Dempsey and 2 firemouths would be alright together provided I have given them enough space and places to hide.

Can anyone suggest any relatively harmless compatible and sturdy fish that I could keep with this mix? (For example: Sharks, Rainbowfish, Catfish, Severums?)

 

[onidrase]

Keep in mind EBJD's are rather fragile and prone to dying for no apparent reason due to lack of care in breeding. Try not to get too attached

The stock in my 75 gallon was a GT, FM, severum, an convict, and once the GT made it to about 5-6 inches he started getting an attitude, and I rehomed them to somebody with a 6x2x2.

I kept them with a school of silver dollars, raphael catfish, and a bristlenose. They'd also probably be compatible with pictus catfish, which are much more active.

 

[Wills]

Okay so this is sounding good so far Your taking it on board pretty well which is great!!

I think it might be worth trying the GT see how it goes but be quick to rehome if things go wrong!

Planning a tank when you want to upgrade is always hard - the problem is life happens, your car needs new brakes, your window breaks, a pipe bursts, your dog needs to go to the vet etc - these might not be applicable to you but you can see what I mean. The fish tank always gets put back - I have been there and it took me nearly a year longer than I anticipated... not a nice situation to be in and I had to rehome some fish.

For me in the 55 with serious intent to upgrade to around 90 gallons or more I would do

1 EBJD
2 Firemouths (unless this turned out to be a pair, then I would skip the EBJD or one of the FMs)
3 Swordtails (green natural morph, 1 male 2 female)
8 Blind Cave Tetras or Red Eye Tetras
3 Hoplo Catfish

that would be quite an accurate Central American tank.

And its a reasonable stock that you can build around in the next tank - so for instance you could look at adding more cichlids - Rainbow Cichlids would be great in there. Cutteri would be nice, Flyer Cichlid would work, Robertsoni would be nice if you could find them.

But you do have other options, there are a few species of Headstanders that would look great, some of the smaller plec species but not commons or similar sized rarer ones. If you dont mind mixing fish from other areas, some of the Synodontis Catfish would be nice. Wood catfish are always nice if you dont mind them hiding. Yoyo loaches and similar sized ones would work but not Clowns.


Something worth doing would be reading up on classifications of fish, so in your examples you went, Sharks, Rainbowfish,Catfish, Severums. Severums are a cichlid and dont really fit in with the above but could work... But equally listing things like Sharks and Catfish are quite vague so it might help to define which parts of these groups of fish you prefer. For example the sharks - things like Rainbow and Red Tailed Black Sharks would work (obviously as a singleton) but thinks like Bala Sharks would not and they are both very different fish classed as sharks by the hobby (though again obviously they are not lol). And with Catfish, do you prefer the active ones like Hoplos and Pictus or more secretive ones like Banjos and Humbugs - and then there are plecs....

But well done for coming to the conclusion of doing whats best for your fish Its not always an easy decision but its always worth it, you were headed down a rough road with the tank and with the level of cost and commitment with these kind of hobbies you have to make sure your always going to enjoy it best you can

Wills