Old, Bloated Betta

dont feed him at all for a few days. if he is bloated and isnt pooping adding more food to his system is not good. hes got to poop a little first.
as for the epsom dip-he likely is just stressed from netting and moving to a new tank. the epsom dips can be used in conjunction to the antibiotics if using as a dip. it is really beneficial when they are so bloated.
all the best with him.
cheers
 
Came home today, he was hiding behind a decoration, and still looks big and bloated and still spiney like the picture above.

If only I had a better way of transporting him to the bucket to do the dips, I hate scaring him half to death to do it. I'll have to look around for a big soup ladle and see if that could work.

With the antibiotics, does anyone know if you can change some of the water white treating? I had been siphoning out tank water into the waterchange bucket and adding salt to that to do the dips so that I know it's the same temperature, but then I have to dump the water because it's had extra salt added to it. Would I be removing too much of the antibiotic or something if I do this? I guess I could remove only a small amount of water to fit into an old betta cup, but then I have to figure out how much salt to add to that.
 
Not sure about the water I had used a small hospital tank so I had to frequent water changes. You won't see a change overnight it may take days or a week or two.
 
I checked on him again, and he is laying on the bottom of the tank, sort of nose down. He's looking more spiney and not very happy.

I'm not even really sure what this is, it's getting me so worried :(
 
Also, I have some java moss and java fern in there. Will the epsom salt harm the plants?

no they can grow in brakish water, especially the java fern. Java moss is just an algue it will be fine

I recommend not to use meds until you start seeing signs of recovery to save yourself some money for the simple reason that picuture for some reason is telling me dropsy. Especially if its just a vail I know Im sounding mean but if a salt bath won't help him at all then the meds more than likely won't, you want to see improvement of somesort before you start medicating a fish for the simple reason you can make them amuned to the meds and then they don't work. Also a Vail is what? $10 and the meds about the same price there about? Sometimes you have to know when to call it quits. Depends on the price of the fish compared to the treatments sometimes and how attached you are to the fish. (its explained below)

I know the feeling I have had 2 pair of very expensive and kinda rare in my area(1 pair i have still alive very rare)the other pair when I mated them ended up getting finrot but finrot came after some other disease and I medicated them over and over and over again and finally had to give up the pair goes for about 100-160 that I lost. I spent about 40 on meds, and worming meds(also for my discus) and after a month of fighting it the disease never went away all I was doing was slowing it down. the disease actually got amuned to the meds, what that means is no matter what I do its to late anyways(with your picture showing the scales raised it sounds to me its almost to late, you want to see improvement before you start medicating, right now the most important thing is water quality 2-3 water changes a day((Im serious, preferable distilled water and a good reason why))A fasting, and salt baths as people have mentioned)If you can get ahold of an almond leaf put it into the water with him in it, you will be amazed on what the leaf provides to help cure diseases, the only issue with the leaf though is it was never raised in that kind of water but the quality it gives MIGHT help when you think its to late. There is stuff the leaf provides you can't just go out and buy in meds or at a local fish store. Then if you see signs of improvment then start to medicate, it might be to late to start this method now but there will always be a next time. Following this method you will cure about 60% of what is out there the rest actually need meds. This fish you mentiond is 2 years old? and also it looks like dropsy it might not be but it does look like it. the age and the signs give it away as such, hope some of this advice works for you. This should help other members as well
smile.gif


Enjoy
Best of luck
 
That seems a little backwards to me. Why would you treat after you start to see recovery? As I see it, the point of medication is to facilitate the healing process by killing whatever organism is causing the disease or infection. I already started the antibiotics(Maracyn 2) so I will have to use them anyways otherwise I will risk creating a resistant strain of bacteria.

And why distilled water? Wouldn't that cause more fluid to be drawn into his body through osmosis? Since there are no solutes in distilled water alone.

I understand what you're saying, I know, he's a red veiltail and those are like a dime a dozen. But I'm really attached to this fish, he is like a member of my family. I cannot simply replace him. I won't spend hundreds to try and fix him, but a $6 dollar pack of medicine is worth it to me if it even has a slight chance of curing him.
 
As far as I can tell you took other people's advice for almost a week to see if he improved, and nothing worked, and they gave good advice. The only thing left to try the med's now, so I think your doing right. It's 50/50 now, but like you said for $6 it;s worth a try at least. Just make sure a small amount of epson salt is in his tank, to try and draw fluids out. That combined with the medicine might start to help. If the medicine works you should start to see swelling go down, and more frequent poo by next week.
 
I picked up a little breeder net box at the store today, so he wouldn't be fumbling around the bottom of the tank and fighting to get around and up for air, and I wouldn't have to check every corner to find where he's hiding to see if he died or not... Maybe it's kinda silly to spend money on an old, dying fish, but if it can give him some comfort before he passes that's fine with me. I'd like to think he'd do the same for me at least.

He looks a little bit more active in the net box now, paddling with his fins and swimming up to the surface instead of laying crashed on the bottom. He is a bit more "pineconed" now though. I'm honestly not expecting him to survive for long at this rate, but I'll still keep up hope and fight while I still can.

He was my first fish, can you tell? :lol:
 
That seems a little backwards to me. Why would you treat after you start to see recovery? As I see it, the point of medication is to facilitate the healing process by killing whatever organism is causing the disease or infection. I already started the antibiotics(Maracyn 2) so I will have to use them anyways otherwise I will risk creating a resistant strain of bacteria.
The reason why has alot to due with properly diagnosing the disease or issue, sometimes something like bloat can be treated without meds, see where I am getting at here. If you follow what I stated half the time you will find out you don't need to go to medicine, the other half of the time you will find out nothing is working (or seeing improvements that is when you go to medicating) for the simple reason it makes the diagnosis of the disease or issue alot easier to narrow it down to what it actually is. Putting meds in won't cure a disease there are some diseases using Maracyn 2 won't even touch the disease. See my point now?

And why distilled water? Wouldn't that cause more fluid to be drawn into his body through osmosis? Since there are no solutes in distilled water alone.
Distilled water is pure... no solutes thats the reason. Betta fish breath from the surface. Distilled water (or RO (has minerals) is clean from diseases etc. Tap water contains soluables and possible diseases thats the reason I stated distilled water. As far as osmosis lets stay away from that its not actually important, its the movement of molecules from high to low concentration, kinda past the hobby part at this point getting into talking about something like this. There are alot of fish you can't put into distilled water, however bettas are not one of them. When you use distilled water and add an almond leaf to it you change the properties to the water, but you know exactly what the properties to the water are, because you started off pure.

I understand what you're saying, I know, he's a red veiltail and those are like a dime a dozen. But I'm really attached to this fish, he is like a member of my family. I cannot simply replace him. I won't spend hundreds to try and fix him, but a $6 dollar pack of medicine is worth it to me if it even has a slight chance of curing him.
Your point is totally understandable, I have a few bettas that are halfmoon myself and they range from 40-100 and 1 pair I have is rare and hard to get in my area I wouldn't think twice about spending up to what they are worth in meds to save me the grief on trying to find them again, im not emotionally attached to mine however, my discus fish on the other hand I am and with them costing approx 100 ea I can definitly see your point!

sorry to hear about your loss, maybe next time everything will work out in your favour
 
That's gutting.

Fighters are so easy to get attached too and their illnesses look much more painful than those you see on other fish.
 
Diagnosing diseases is one of the more difficult things in this hobby. Commercial operations will dissect an ailing fish out of the group, stain slides, use a microscope, and by doing this come up with a better idea of what the issue is. This is more likely to point towards the proper medication. Obviously doing this with a single pet fish is not an option.

The best approach in a situation such as has occurred here is an educated guess, and treat with a broad range medication to treat what is the most probable issue. Osmotic pressure is much easier to understand than the identification of bacteria with a microscope, and is obviously less invasive. In any case involving bloat you can use this to your advantage; thus the addition of epsom salt to the tank water, or as a dip. Distilled or RO water accomplishes the opposite of this, and is not something I would ever suggest for a freshwater fish with any sort of swelling.

If you suspect there are bacteria in your tap water that may affect fish, which I have never heard of but may be possible, I would give the replacement water a quick boil, let it cool and aerate it before the water change. Personally if I suspected bacteria such as that in my tap water I would be hesitant to consider it potable water.

One of the biggest problems with antibiotics and fish is resistant strains of bacteria. All antibiotics are poisonous to something, in a best case scenario we pick the drug and dosage that will effectively eliminate the bacteria with little or no harm to the fish. The more potent the drug the bigger the risk to the fish in most cases. In any field of medicine the least invasive and damaging course of treatment is chosen first. In this case it would be the epsom salt, followed by antibiotics such as Maracyn and Maracyn II. There are more effective antibiotics out there, if you have the proper disease identification, and usually at a higher cost. Maracyn is one of the most easily obtainable medications in the US, and is usually the most logical starting point with a disease that does not have a positive bacteria definition.

The biggest problem with Maracyn comes with the box; the instructions. With all other living things, humans, other mammals such as dogs and cats, antibiotics are given daily for 10-14 days. Five days will not cut it for antibiotics, and this in itself can, and is the probable cause of drug resistant bacteria strains. Most bacteria that cause disease are water borne, there are no water change instructions with any of the Maracyn antibiotics.

The solution? Large daily water changes, 50% or more, and a redose, every day for 10-14 days. If Mardel put these instructions on their medication they would not sell much; everyone is looking for a quick fix. Unfortunately bacteria don't understand a quick fix, can be quite resilient, and after the short dosage period reappear, often in a form that is resistant to the drug that was used.
 
Yeah, the thing that bothered me about the Maracyn II was the lack of water change instructions. There are instructions for water changes with some other medicines I've had, but none for this antibiotic. I was baffled as to whether or not I could do a water change or if doing a water change could affect the medicine and make it not as effective or something. And then there is the 5 to 10 day dosing schedule, which of course as you said brings up resistance problems. We certainly don't need a MRSA of the fish world! I will keep those dosing instructions in mind in case I need to use this stuff again in the future (knock on wood).

Thank you all for taking the time to comment.
 

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