Not Sure What To Do?

[chocolatedelight]

Hi folks,

Me and hubby are very new to this and new to this site so please go gentle on me

Ok, on Saturday we decided to get some fish form the kids, it was supposed to be a goldfish in a bowl job to now having an aquarium! Anyhoo we purchased an Elite 60 kit and set it up with a couple of ornaments as set out in booklet, added the nurafin aquaplus, left it a bit the added the Nurtafin Cycle and added a few flakes of food (as it states in booklet)all was fine and clear, got up on Sunday all was clear in tank and went about our day and went to buy an artificial plant thingy and a couple of stones, got home washed them well and added to aquarium, we then added another dose of Nutrafin Cycle as it says on the sticker on the bottle we need to add our reccommended dose over 3 days (but does not say this in the book which baffles me a bit), but this morning when we woke up the water is slightly cloudy.

We are not sure if this is what is supposed to be happening as in it is strting its cycle or if the ornaments are causing it to go cloudy or if we have put too much Nutuafin cycle in?

Should we be doing a partial water change or just leave it and hopefully it will start to clear? Also we have not turned on the light in the Aquarium since we set it up as it has no fish I didnt thik we would need to, but not sure if the light helps the process in some way? I have read the New aquarium information on here, and a few other places and im confused as some sites say leave the tank and will clear up, others say do a partial water change, some say atart all over again as there should be no cloudiness as there are no fish yet.

Many thanks in advance

 

[plecostomus-mad]

the cloudy water is probably a bacterial bloom, which is good. take a look at the link below, it will explain in alot of detail about cycling tanks and has many answers to ALOT of questions you may have in the future

beginners resourse center here on tff.

Welcome to tff

 

[star4]

Hi and welcome. Bacterial bloom is perfectly normal in a new tank it should clear itself (follow the link above tells you everything) however your tank is not big enough for a goldfish!

 

[chocolatedelight]

Hi and welcome. Bacterial bloom is perfectly normal in a new tank it should clear itself (follow the link above tells you everything) however your tank is not big enough for a goldfish!

It isn't?? I was hoping to get 4 in there eventually, says on the box we could, not sure I want to be dragging it back to the shop for a bigger one

 

[plecostomus-mad]

goldfish are messy fish, also depending on species can get quite big. your tank really is too small im afraid. we arnt saying it to be funny, we have good intentions not only the tank size restrics the fish you can have but also the filter.you could have a 4ft tank but with a tiny filter you coulndt have much fish at all.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi CD and Welcome to TFF!

You have chosen a wonderful and fascinating activity to share with your children and to enjoy in your home! You are quite lucky, in my opinion, to have stumbled across this great hobbyist site while looking for a web forum to participate in. The information here is orders of magnitude better than what you will find in little booklets with the equipment or on the backs of bottles sold in the LFS (Local Fish Shop.) There are a lot of friendly beginners and experienced hobbyists who will enjoy helping you out.

It can be quite a jolt to come to a serious hobbyist site. It turns out that the retail industry that sells you the equipment and fish and the serious side of the hobby have gone their separate ways to some extent. Creating a working freshwater environment and keeping healthy fish is actually quite a slow process and carries with it a bit of a learning curve. It does not mesh well with our current "instant gratification" world and the retailers know that better than anyone else. Their focus is to get the shopper involved right during the first visit and to try as much as possible to give them instant gratification.

A classic example of this are "bacteria in a bottle" products, such as you are using. The unfortunate truth is that the bacteria are dead, if there were ever any present to begin with. The two species of bacteria we need are difficult little critters. They need a constant stream of ammonia and oxygen to be able to live and divide. And they grow very, very slowly!

Shortly, the members will be along to explain what you are experiencing and the kinds of "real" things you can do to get started in the hobby the right way. I'm a parent too and I anticipate that one of the frustrations you may experience is that developing the correct healthy environment for your fish -prior- to exposing them to it (a process called "Fishless Cycling") takes much, much longer than you will have anticipated and is very, very boring to children. Believe me though, its worth it! The alternative, explaining to your children why their new pets have died or become ill, is much worse. And the hobby itself is -so- worth it! It is one of the only things around that goes in the opposite direction of our fast-paced life and encourages the family to slow down, relax and decompress from things.

The cloudiness you are seeing is what we call a "bacterial bloom" and its harmless and will go away without leaving problems. Its confusing because this bloom is really a cloud of millions and millions of bacteria that are *not* the bacteria we are trying to grow in our filters to "cycle" the tank! The cloud is composed of "heterotrophic" bacteria (present all over the earth) that break down organic materials and leave ammonia (NH3) as a result. These bacteria are blooming because of chemicals that are given off as a side effect of the sealant used to hold the aquarium glass together and also because of some organics possibly in the source water coming in.

The homework you need to concentrate on are the 3 articles in the Beginners Resource Center: The Nitrogen Cycle, The Fishless Cycle and the Fish-In Cycle. The tools you'll probably need to concentrate on are getting a good liquid-reagent based test kit (many of us like and use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit) and beginning your search for the correct type of household ammonia product to use in your Fishless Cycle (assuming you come through your beginner lessons with the good outcome of deciding you're going to perform a fishless cycle!)

If I have time I'll get back on and give my own explanation of the fishless cycle, but I'm sure others will talk with you about it too! Basically what I'm saying is to toss the timeslines and bottled bacteria out the window and begin gathering some serious knowledge from the members here. It will be a strange and possibly challanging experience but it will hopefully leapfrog you to beautiful and healthy tanks and a real know-how in the hobby.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[chocolatedelight]

lol,

sorry we are not going to actually buy goldfish, it was more a figure of speech, we have not decided on the actual fish we will be putting in, we are still trying to figure out this cycle stuff lol, although now you raise another question for me. What fish would you reccommend especially now you have mentioned the size thing, as long as they are quite a colourful we are easy. I did have my eye on those diddy crabs or frogs too , but thats a whole other lot of drama from what I read.

 

[plecostomus-mad]

fish that are ideal for this tank size include....

Guppies, Platys, Cardinal Tetras, Harlequin Rasboras, Neon Tetras, Glowlight Tetras, Zebra Danios, Corydora Catfish (such as Bronze/Albino and Sterbai), Black Neon Tetras, Cherry Barbs. google each one so you can see what they look like

 

[chocolatedelight]

Hi CD and Welcome to TFF!

You have chosen a wonderful and fascinating activity to share with your children and to enjoy in your home! You are quite lucky, in my opinion, to have stumbled across this great hobbyist site while looking for a web forum to participate in. The information here is orders of magnitude better than what you will find in little booklets with the equipment or on the backs of bottles sold in the LFS (Local Fish Shop.) There are a lot of friendly beginners and experienced hobbyists who will enjoy helping you out.

It can be quite a jolt to come to a serious hobbyist site. It turns out that the retail industry that sells you the equipment and fish and the serious side of the hobby have gone their separate ways to some extent. Creating a working freshwater environment and keeping healthy fish is actually quite a slow process and carries with it a bit of a learning curve. It does not mesh well with our current "instant gratification" world and the retailers know that better than anyone else. Their focus is to get the shopper involved right during the first visit and to try as much as possible to give them instant gratification.

A classic example of this are "bacteria in a bottle" products, such as you are using. The unfortunate truth is that the bacteria are dead, if there were ever any present to begin with. The two species of bacteria we need are difficult little critters. They need a constant stream of ammonia and oxygen to be able to live and divide. And they grow very, very slowly!

Shortly, the members will be along to explain what you are experiencing and the kinds of "real" things you can do to get started in the hobby the right way. I'm a parent too and I anticipate that one of the frustrations you may experience is that developing the correct healthy environment for your fish -prior- to exposing them to it (a process called "Fishless Cycling") takes much, much longer than you will have anticipated and is very, very boring to children. Believe me though, its worth it! The alternative, explaining to your children why their new pets have died or become ill, is much worse. And the hobby itself is -so- worth it! It is one of the only things around that goes in the opposite direction of our fast-paced life and encourages the family to slow down, relax and decompress from things.

The cloudiness you are seeing is what we call a "bacterial bloom" and its harmless and will go away without leaving problems. Its confusing because this bloom is really a cloud of millions and millions of bacteria that are *not* the bacteria we are trying to grow in our filters to "cycle" the tank! The cloud is composed of "heterotrophic" bacteria (present all over the earth) that break down organic materials and leave ammonia (NH3) as a result. These bacteria are blooming because of chemicals that are given off as a side effect of the sealant used to hold the aquarium glass together and also because of some organics possibly in the source water coming in.

The homework you need to concentrate on are the 3 articles in the Beginners Resource Center: The Nitrogen Cycle, The Fishless Cycle and the Fish-In Cycle. The tools you'll probably need to concentrate on are getting a good liquid-reagent based test kit (many of us like and use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit) and beginning your search for the correct type of household ammonia product to use in your Fishless Cycle (assuming you come through your beginner lessons with the good outcome of deciding you're going to perform a fishless cycle!)

If I have time I'll get back on and give my own explanation of the fishless cycle, but I'm sure others will talk with you about it too! Basically what I'm saying is to toss the timeslines and bottled bacteria out the window and begin gathering some serious knowledge from the members here. It will be a strange and possibly challanging experience but it will hopefully leapfrog you to beautiful and healthy tanks and a real know-how in the hobby.

~~waterdrop~~

Awwwww, thanks, I am going to send hubby to this site too, hes the one that has gone all super serious over this aquarium thing, he did not even read up on as many books about our baby as much as he is now doing about all this. LOL

 

[arobinson1984]

Hi, and welcome to both this forum and the hobby of fishkeeping.

First off, just wanted to say that was a great informative post from waterdrop as always.

First bit of advice I would give you chocolatedelight would be to totally ignore any instructions that came with the tank regarding cycling, these instructions 9 times out 10 ten are wrong simply because they are written by manufacturers / retailers and not by hobbyists.

The posts that waterdrop mentioned you need to read regarding the nitrogen cycle etc are linked in my signature if you cant find them.

I'll write a very simple explanation about cycling, and you can then read them posts which will go into more detail.


First off, fish create ammonia, both through their waste (poo) and through their gills as they breathe, ammonia is poisonous to fish so the job of your filter in the tank is the nullify ammonia that is created rendering it harmless to the fish. Unfortuanately the filter when new does not have the beneficial bacteria in it required to deal with the ammonia created by the fish, therefore a process called a cycle has to undertaken to get the filter ready to safely handle fish.

You may be wondering why fish in the wild do not need require this, the reason being that fish in lakes / rivers / sea etc have such vast amounts of water that any ammonia produced has no ill effect, whereas in a tank, ammonia builds up as the amounts of water we keep fish in are tiny compared to the wild.

Anyway back to the cycle, what basically happens is:

1. A fish creates ammonia via waste and gills, ammonia is poisonous.
2. A bacteria we will for arguments sake call 'A bacs' grow over time in the filter media which is able to convert ammonia into nitrIte (not to be confused with nitrAte)
3. NitrIte is also poisonous to fish so again over time another set of bateria we will call 'N Bacs' grow in the filter to convert the nitrIte to nitrAtes.
4. Now nitrAtes are not poisonous to fish unless in large amounts or the fish is of a specific delicate species. NitrAtes are then kept low by doing weekly water changes etc.
5. This whole process, for the 2 types of bacteria to grow in the filter takes anywhere between 4-8 weeks typically but has been known to be quicker or longer, if you know anybody that has a tank that has been up and running for a while then getting a bit of mature filter media from their filter would help speed up this process as it would already contain these 2 bacteria.
6. Once the process is completed then the tank can be considered 'cycled'

Right, ammonia causes permanent damage to fishes gills, whereas nitrIte causes permanent damage to fishes nervous system. In a fully cycled tank, both ammonia and nitrIte should always be 0, any higher levels of each indicates a problem.

There are 2 main ways of performing this cycle:

1. A fishless cycle
2. A fish-in cycle

Firstly lets look at a fishless cycle, this is by many the preferred way, its A LOT easier to perform. Basically to start the cycle ammonia needs to be present to start the growth of the first set of bacteria, in a fishless cycle this ammonia is added in liquid form from a bottle. The pro's of a fishless cycle are that its a lot easier and as there are no fish in the tank, no fish will get harmed during the cycle process. The only downside to a fishless cycle is basically looking at an empty tank for 4-8 week typically but as you mentioned you have children this may be a lot easier for your children to accept rather than explaining why their fish have died.

Secondly a fish-in cycle means performing the cycler using fish as the original ammonia source. The problem with a fish in cycle is that because both ammonia and nitrItes are poisonous to fish then usually 1-3 large water changes (about 75-90% each) a day are usually required to keep the levels of ammonia and nitrIte diluted enough to not cause any harm. Now straight way you can see that 1-3 water changes every day for 4-8 weeks is a lot of work whereas a fishless cycle you will not require any water changes because there are no fish to worry about.

To sum it up, the decision is, is it worth sacrificing looking at an empty tank whilst the cycle performs in order to save yourself a lot of work and the prosibilty of harming any fish?

Whichever cycle you choose you will need:

- A heater (guessing it came with tank)

- A filter (again should have come with tank)

- A good LIQUID based test kit (most popular is the API freshwater master kit, its about £30 from pets at home but can be bought on ebay and elsewhere online for about £17.) Test strips are very innaccurate and are a waste of money.

- A bottle of water conditioner that removes chlorine from tap water, I'm guessing you bought the elite 60 set from pets at home? if so you will have got a little bottle of this. There are many kinds, some stronger than others. When you come to replace the one you have I'd go for one called seachem prime as it is more concentrated meaning you will use less and it will last longer.

- A gravel cleaner (not used during the cycle but will be required for after when you perform weekly water changes once fish are present)

- A bottle of household ammonia should you choose to perform a fishless cycle (This can be bought for about £3 a bottle from boots or homebase)


You dont need the bottle of cycle that came with the tank, as mentioned before by another poster, these are basically useless. Save your money to spend of fish once the tank is ready.

Plecostomus-mad mentioned a list of fish that would be suitable for your tank, the only one I'd disagree with are zebra danios as they are very lively and ideally would need a slightly larger tank but there are literally hundreds of different fish that would be good in your tank and if you choose the fishless cycle then you can use the time during the cycle to plan the stocking of fish / plants / layout etc of your tank.

Anyway you'll probably be bored of reading now so any questions, dont hesitate to ask, this forum has many experienced members that are more than willing to help, remember that you are much better off with advice from this forum rather than a fish store as they want your money and will usually suggest things you 'need' to buy to get it, members of this forum only want whats best for your fish.

Have a read of the links in my signature which go into each type of cycling in more detail with a basic guide of how each are performed.


Andy

 

[chocolatedelight]

Thanks arobinson, nice and simple I did not realise just how much work goes into it and is an eyeopener, but all the same we (more so hubby) are quite excited about the eventuality of having a nice clean aquarium with fish that will live longer than a day! Thankfully the kids can wait, the eldest is 12 so I can explain whats going on and he will understand, the 2 year old is just happy for an empty tank with ornaments. Hmmmm, would be nice if pet shop owners told us this before buying, in fainess at least pets at home said a week before adding fish which going by what everyone is saying still isnt enough time, but local shop told me 24-48 hours!?!?

So what do we do now? we have started using the nutrafin stuff and bought a big bottle yesterday, had I found this site sooner I wouldnt have bothered, should we just start the ammonia from tomorrow with the water that already in tank or syphon all the water out and start again?

Thanks.

CD

 

[arobinson1984]

Hi,

The water in the tank will be fine, the nutrafin stuff wont do any harm, its just not likely to do any good. Bacteria need 2 main things to survive, a food source and oxygen, neither of which they are getting sat in a bottle on a shelf for months. There no doubt that at one point there would have been live bacteria in there but its likely to have all died by now (if it was the correct bacteria in the first place lol)

Anyway, the only things you need to add now are:

1. Ammonia - I've found this one the best -> Click link it can be found in most larger boots stores in the cleaning section. When picking up this ammonia also get a 5ml syringe for measuring the ammonia.

2. Water conditioner - To remove chlorine and chloramines from tap water, I'm guessing you added this when you filled the tank so you just need a bottle for whenever you do water changes in the future.


Have you had a read of the fishless cycle thread? there are 2 main ways of performing the fishless cycle, the best I would say is the add and wait method.

You basically now want to add enough ammonia to take the test reading up to 5ppm which stands for parts per million. If you click this link -> forum calculator at the bottom you can calculate how many millilitres of ammonia you need to add to achieve a 5ppm reading, I get 3.16ml of ammonia needed so using 3ml would be fine.

After adding the ammonia, wait an hour and test the water using an ammonia test to check the levels, you basically then wait until the ammonia levels start to drop, as ammonia levels start to drop you should notice that nitrIte levels should start to increase. It can usually take anywhere between 10-14 days before the first lot of ammonia begins to drop so just test each morning and keep an eye out.

Both your lfs and pets at home were both wrong to an extent, you could have left your tank stood for a year and it would be no nearer being ready for fish than day 1 because without an ammonia source the cycle would never start. What pets at home basically want you to do is wait a week, test your water which would obviously be fine as there wouldnt be any fish or ammonia source at that point and then put some fish in, they wouldnt tell you that you'd then be in a fish in cycle situation. From pets at homes point of view, if your fish die its better for them as you go back and spend more money in their store on fish or medications etc, at the end of the day they are a business out to make a profit. I personally wouldnt ever buy fish from pets at home.

Where abouts do you live? they are probably much better places to buy fish in your area.

Yeah there is alot more to fishkeeping that meets the eye lol


Andy

 

[chocolatedelight]

Hi,

I seem to have another issue now, the water has turned green, I guess this is algae bloom. I have been looking at ways to help shift this, sunlight seems to be a big factor in helping growth and although the tank is not directly opposite a window, I do have 2 large sash windows in a 16x12 room and it is very bright no matter where you go and no option to move in another part of the flat, at saying that my blinds (that are not blackout) have been knackered for some time now and I can't pull them up so the room never gets the full sunlight. I was reading that I should maybe blackout the tank to kill kill off the algae or it could be something to do with phosphates. I dont think it helped that the filter was fully submerged as per instruction booklet, only to be told today it should be sitting just under water level.

Any suggestions please?

thanks.

 

[arobinson1984]

Hi,

It is likely to just be an algae bloom and is common in new tanks and will usually clear up of its own accord.

Not sure how long you have lights on the tank but dont have them on any longer than about 6 hours a day for the min if you need them on at all, if the water doesnt clear up you can do as you mentioned, a blackout which will help kill all the algae.


Andy

 

[chocolatedelight]

Hi,

It is likely to just be an algae bloom and is common in new tanks and will usually clear up of its own accord.

Not sure how long you have lights on the tank but dont have them on any longer than about 6 hours a day for the min if you need them on at all, if the water doesnt clear up you can do as you mentioned, a blackout which will help kill all the algae.


Andy

Thanks,

We've not really put the tank light on as the room itself is quite bright, had it on yesterday for a few hours yesterday and early this morning, but won't be doing that again for now. We have done a partial water change, cleaned and adjusted the filter so i'll see how it goes over the next few days.