Nitrates And Water Changes....help

[Deleted member 107737]

Hi All.

So when you think you have learnt it all, something pops up like the following:

150 litre tank, planted, canister filter, pressurised co2, tnc complete daily 2ml

The nitrates from api liquid test seems to be showing significant reddish colour which has got me worried. Tap water is about 5-10ppm.

Im doing 1 x 33% water change a week. I do not overfeed the fish.

Should I up this to 2 a week and if so would it affect my plant growth??

Thanks,

dave

 

[misterpro]

What ppm would you guess the nitrates are at?
 
Do you have many fish and not much plants?
 
*edit*
Hmm it might just be the fertilizer you use.  Found this on the maker's website...
 
TNC Complete is an aquatic plant food specially formulated for use in more densely planted aquariums, or for aquariums with few fish.
TNC Complete contains a balanced blend of Nitrogen, Phosphorous and Potassium as well as Magnesium and all the important trace elements.

• Encourages vigorous growth for strong healthy plants which in turn will greatly reduce the risk of algae.
• Can be used in conjunction with TNC Plugs.
• Will not cause algae
• DOES contain necessary Nitrate and Phosphate
• Ideal for use with CO2 injection or Carbon supplements
• Can be used by beginners or more experienced aquascapers.
• Can be tailored for use when Estimative Index (E.I) dosing.

I don't know if there's much nitrate in it, but perhaps you could try a fertilizer with no nitrate in it.

 

[Deleted member 107737]

ahhh I see. Might be why then.
 
Well I only have 2 fish in the tank. (fancy goldfish) I would say the nitrates are 40ppm. water change was Friday.
 
I would say moderately planted.
 
Should I just increase the water changes?? I want to continue using the complete as ive only just bought it.
 
Thanks,

 

[levahe]

Don't worry about the nitrates, just carry on as normal - nitrates are good in a planted tank!

 

[misterpro]

I wouldn't worry to much about 40, unless you have some hypersensitive fish.

 

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I am confused about your technique.
Water changes are to eliminate nitrites and nitrates yet you are adding a product to increase those things.

Now I am coming from a slightly different angle because I do aquaponics and grow plants on top of my tanks but I don't do water changes at all because the nitrites and nitrates do not build up. The plants consume them faster than I can make them. I probably feed my fish about four times what a standard aquarist would. I have one tank that I am trying to grow a very large tomato plant out of and I even add seaweed based fertilizer to the tank. That is a 15 gallon tank and has 7 cories. I just upped their feeding from 10 shrimp pellets twice a day to 20 or about 1/2 teaspoon twice a day just to increase nutrients to the plant. Nitrites and nitrates are unmeasureable.
 
If I was using your fertilizer in my system I would stop doing water changes and monitor the nitrites and nitrates. If they stayed low I would start adding fertilizer until the Nitrates came up to about 20ppm.
It wouldn't hurt to do partial water changes ocasionally just to keep some trace minerals that might be getting consumed and not replenished elsewhere.

Now I know this is a very untraditional approach for the aquarium comunity so take it as just a thought from a different perspective. Don't change anything drastic but you might start experimenting with small changes over time and see how the system responds. 

 

[levahe]

I am confused about your technique.
Water changes are to eliminate nitrites and nitrates yet you are adding a product to increase those things.

Now I am coming from a slightly different angle because I do aquaponics and grow plants on top of my tanks but I don't do water changes at all because the nitrites and nitrates do not build up. The plants consume them faster than I can make them. I probably feed my fish about four times what a standard aquarist would. I have one tank that I am trying to grow a very large tomato plant out of and I even add seaweed based fertilizer to the tank. That is a 15 gallon tank and has 7 cories. I just upped their feeding from 10 shrimp pellets twice a day to 20 or about 1/2 teaspoon twice a day just to increase nutrients to the plant. Nitrites and nitrates are unmeasureable.
 
If I was using your fertilizer in my system I would stop doing water changes and monitor the nitrites and nitrates. If they stayed low I would start adding fertilizer until the Nitrates came up to about 20ppm.
It wouldn't hurt to do partial water changes ocasionally just to keep some trace minerals that might be getting consumed and not replenished elsewhere.

Now I know this is a very untraditional approach for the aquarium comunity so take it as just a thought from a different perspective. Don't change anything drastic but you might start experimenting with small changes over time and see how the system responds.

The OP is running a high energy co2 injected set up which accelerates plant growth. The plants uptake of nutrients is very high so the only way to keep up with demand is to add the required nutrients manually and often. There is a high amount of organic waste produced and this needs to be kept under control by large weekly water changes that also 'reset' the plant nutrients. Water changes and a clean aquarium are important to a successful high energy planted tank, and the fish appreciate the fresh water too

 

[yoshimitsuspeed]

The OP is running a high energy co2 injected set up which accelerates plant growth. The plants uptake of nutrients is very high so the only way to keep up with demand is to add the required nutrients manually and often. There is a high amount of organic waste produced and this needs to be kept under control by large weekly water changes that also 'reset' the plant nutrients. Water changes and a clean aquarium are important to a successful high energy planted tank, and the fish appreciate the fresh water too
 

 
I have never done a planted tank so this is interesting to me. I am curious what the differences would be and the reasoning behind things.
 
This tank is flourishing and has more greenery growing out of it than I could comforatbly fit into it.
The only nutrients that I add is the food I feed the fish. The fish waste creates nitrogen that the plants consume. The vitamins and minerals in the fish food that the fish don't metabolize is disolved into the water. This tank has done fine no matter what the PH is or what I put in the water.

 I have another tank with tomatos, basil and a couple other plants that are much more sensitive to PH. As long as that is maintained right around 7 they grow fine and show no signs of nutritonal deficiency.

 
Now the actual physical waste will be caught by the filter so if you have a traditional filter then those changes will require the same regularity.
The tank in the first pic ran no filter for about 3 months before the water started to get murky so I have since added a small bubble biofilter in the tank. Since then the water has cleared up again.
The second tank pumps the waste up into the bed behind it where there are red wiggler worms so I never have to worry about filter changes. 

The point though is that there are plenty of nurtients to grow these plants just from the food I feed the fish. There is also enough root system, plant bacteria and surface area that the nitrites and nitrates never get out of hand. They are actually for the most part self sustaining aside from feeding the fish.
Since water evaporates and I am constantly adding water I am constantly ading minerals and micronutrients. If anything the ocasional water change might be good just in case something is building up too much due to evaporation. It still wouldn't need to be very often.

So I'm just curious what is different about a planted aquairum where all this work is nescecary vs aquaponics where it has been proven unnececary.

 

[levahe]

The main reason is algae prevention. Organic waste build up and a nutrition imbalance would result in a unsightly and damaging algae outbreak.

The whole reason we make planted tanks is that they look nice! It requires a bit of work to keep it all looking nice but its worth all the hard work in the end. Your plants are immune to algae so while they look nice and healthy it doesn't matter what the tank looks like I guess

 

[snazy]

The main reason is algae prevention. Organic waste build up and a nutrition imbalance would result in a unsightly and damaging algae outbreak.
 
 

 
I see the point of yoshimitsuspeed.
"Organic waste and nutritients" are what those plants we grow in tanks consume.  Whether you add them via some fancy manufactured bottle, or via fish food/fish waste/organic waste, the plants won't mind either way. That's how nitrogen cycle works.
There's no such a thing as nutritient imbalance causing algae according to many experienced aquarists. Algae is caused by lack of CO2 and nutritients and when growing plants emersed you eliminate the CO2 problem as they get unlimited CO2 from air.

 

[levahe]

yoshimitsuspeed isn't making a point, just asking a question.

You said "Algae is caused by lack of CO2 and nutritients"

That is what a nutrient imbalance is.

 

[DrRob]

OK, first up, nitrate testing isn't really all that useful in a high tech system. Organic build ups from the plant growth will need regular heavy water changes anyway. As in the 50% changes in the EI method.
 
The fundamental difference between hydroponics and planted aquariums is that the hydroponic systems are designed for ideal growing conditions, which tend to have nutrient levels that are potentially toxic to fish, so we have slightly different rules.
 
As has been said, algae is caused by having a fairly simple recipe of organic nutrients and light. Heavily planted systems have plants that are better at using these nutrients, but require other conditions to be right, get those right and the plants out compete the algae for the nutrients, get them wrong and the algae out competes the plants. The problem is that these systems tend to have lots of light and nutrient, so when the go wrong, and they do, they go very wrong.

 

[yoshimitsuspeed]

OK, first up, nitrate testing isn't really all that useful in a high tech system. Organic build ups from the plant growth will need regular heavy water changes anyway. As in the 50% changes in the EI method.
 
The fundamental difference between hydroponics and planted aquariums is that the hydroponic systems are designed for ideal growing conditions, which tend to have nutrient levels that are potentially toxic to fish, so we have slightly different rules

Just pointing out that I said aquaponics, not hydroponics. My systems have fish in them and use the fish to provide nutrients. Water quality parameters must meet the needs of both fish and plants.
One of my tanks gets some algae growth in the roots that are directly under the lights. Other than that algae isn't bad at all. My other tank in a south facing window got direct sunlight all winter. I got a little algae on the window side of the tank but the plec kept it fine. I cleaned the sides of the tanks every couple months till I added the MTS. Now They keep it clean.

 

[snazy]

You said "Algae is caused by lack of CO2 and nutritients"

That is what a nutrient imbalance is.         
 

 
I find a great difference between saying "nutritient imbalance" and "lack of nutritients and carbon dioxide". These aren't exactly interchangeable terms.
 

Organic build ups from the plant growth will need regular heavy water changes anyway. As in the 50% changes in the EI method.
 

 
This is more relevant to carbon dioxide enriched tanks as in the OPs setup.
 
But keeping tanks via a method like Diana Walstad's for example actually welcomes the build up of organics as they provide the only means to naturally produce CO2 and nutritients via the soil in such setups.
 
@ brownd95
 
Water changes will not affect your plant growth. They are a good thing as long as you resume the dosing schedule. The bad part about "complete fertilizers" is that in order to up or reduce NO3 for example, you'd need to reduce the entire dosage. Dry ferts are cheaper and better that way.
The Nitrate test may not exactly be accurate. I normally go by my TDS meter and if the levels start building up, I know I am adding too much ferts/not doing enough water changes and I've kind of figured the plants consumation rate after a while.  But if you are worried that the nitrate levels are building up with just 33% water changes, then you can either up the water changes or reduce the fertilizer amount which also contains NO3(but this can affect the plants unless they are not consuming all you are adding which is just a waste easily removed by water changes).
 
Honestly, I'd just concentrate on getting the plants grow healthy, steady and free of algae, and not worry about other things now unless you have the appropriate types of ferts to play around and necessary tests. I'd up the water changes and make sure you have enough and good distribution of CO2 for the amount of light provided and ferts are enough.
You can also just add more fast growing plants/emersed plants/floating plants to help with the build up of nutritients.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Well in a nutshell here is the difference:
 
Some people keep fish and no plants. Rift lake folks and many breeders.
 
Some people keep fish and use plants to further that objective. What I think I do.
 
Some people keep plants and use fish to further that objective. What Diana Walstad or yoshi do.
 
Some people keep plants and don't bother with the fish. The Dutch aquarium for ex., Hydroponics.
 
Depending into which of the above groups one falls fall will determine how they approach these issues.
 
In a high tech tank phosphate and nitrate may not cause algae, the same result will not be obtained adding those things to a plantless tank.