I feel I have derailed the thread... Sorry.
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Nitrate Into A 'harmless',inert Gas.
- Thread starter The Taffy Apple
- Start date
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- Tags
- nitrogen cycle.
I feel I have derailed the thread... Sorry.
lol its all related into tank maintenence so its still on track
I feel I have derailed the thread... Sorry.
OP
OP
The Taffy Apple
Fish Herder
The latest i have received during our chat is ;"We have developed a technology binding beneficial bacteria thats establish mutualistic relationships..."
What ARE they trying to sell me ?!?!
Terry.
Snake oil?
OP
OP
The Taffy Apple
Fish Herder
No, they are very common...at least for reef tanks.
OP
OP
The Taffy Apple
Fish Herder
Ok... so after not being able to answer the majority of questions i had for this 'spammer', they have very kindly offered to provide me with a sample of this 'product' (stated as a bottle of clear liquid, add only once a year when you change half the water..etc etc etc..), they were even open to persuasion for free shipping. Their website shows some good practices, answers and products..yet there is still alot of potentially harmful advise on there....the one man stand contiues...
Terry.
Terry.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Maniac
Denitrification in recirculating systems: Theory and applications
Aquacultural Engineering 34 (2006) 364–376
http
/www.growfishanywhere.com/media/3849/denitrification__2_.pdf
Its more than I can or want to wrap my brain around, but it porbably answers your questions.
Aquacultural Engineering 34 (2006) 364–376
http
/www.growfishanywhere.com/media/3849/denitrification__2_.pdfIts more than I can or want to wrap my brain around, but it porbably answers your questions.
holyyy #93###. thats a readDenitrification in recirculating systems: Theory and applications
Aquacultural Engineering 34 (2006) 364–376
http
Its more than I can or want to wrap my brain around, but it porbably answers your questions.
I would say that article is out of date. I think the concept of denitrifying filters is well established now and the article states that they are still under development. The Berlin method is nothing more than a nitrifying and denitrifying filter in one. Even the use of algae or plants to remove nitrates can be considered a form of biological denitrifying filter. I think the only thing really in question here is does the product the OP mentions actually work. Theoretically it certain COULD but if it actually does remains to be seen.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Maniac
Tcamos, perhaps this would change your mind?
http/www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22265979
http/www.im.ac.cn/...angqingling.pdf
Or go to Go to Google Scholar, enter the term "aerobic denitrification". Then to make sure you are not seeing "out of date" information, one the left side of the page, enter 2009 - 2013 to time limit the results. You should then get back only about 14,000 results.
Incidentally, most of the research into denitrification you will find will not deal with salt water aquariums, it will deal with much larger scale water treatment applications.
if you need a refernce dealing with DO in tanks, you can look here for a quick answer http/www.algone.com/articles/technical-aquarium-information/oxygen-in-the-aquarium
http
/www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22265979http
/www.im.ac.cn/...angqingling.pdfOr go to Go to Google Scholar, enter the term "aerobic denitrification". Then to make sure you are not seeing "out of date" information, one the left side of the page, enter 2009 - 2013 to time limit the results. You should then get back only about 14,000 results.
Incidentally, most of the research into denitrification you will find will not deal with salt water aquariums, it will deal with much larger scale water treatment applications.
if you need a refernce dealing with DO in tanks, you can look here for a quick answer http
/www.algone.com/articles/technical-aquarium-information/oxygen-in-the-aquarium
Interesting. Thanks for the links.
The article begins with a confirmation of what I had thought and then goes on to explain a very specific strain of bacteria.
The removal of nitrogen from wastewater by nitrifiers and denitrifiers was the most efficient method in wastewater treatment. Autotrophic nitrification and anoxic denitrification played important roles in this process. Nitrifiers convert ammonia to nitrite, followed by nitrate. Denitrifiers reduce nitrate to nitrite, finally to N2, in which NO and N2O were the main intermediate products
(Joo et al., 2005). Due to the totally differences in physiology and biochemistry, the nitrifiers and denitrifiers had some disadvantages in the process of nitrogen removal treatment of wastewater. Nitrifiers were sensitive to organic matter (Kulikowska et al., 2010). However, organic compounds were necessary to the denitrifiers. In addition, the growth of nitrifiers relied on oxygen that was toxic to denitrifiers (Lloyd et al., 1987).
The particular strain of aerobic denitrifying bacteria is one they call L7 in the article. It says it was found to produce nitrogen gas in an aerobic environment. Very cool discovery.
GC–MS results showed that N2O was produced on both nitrate (Fig. 2A) and nitrite (Fig. 2B) served as substrate, respectively. The results also indicated that strain L7 emit N2O when 15NH4Cl (HNM, Fig. 2C) and 15NH4Cl plus hydroxylamine (HNM plus hydroxylamine, Fig. 2D) as nitrification substrates. N2O isotopic abundance ratios (Fig. 3) showed that the labeled 15,14N2O, 15,15N2O did appear in the headspace gas of HNM sample, although the abundance of N2O from NH4Cl was far less than that of nitrate, nitrite and NH4Cl plus hydroxylamine (Fig. 2). These results suggested that strain L7 was a heterotrophic nitrification–aerobic denitrifier. It could not only aerobically denitrify nitrate or nitrite to form N2O, but also nitrify ammonia to form N2O, and the later was rarely reported in other strains.
It concludes that this is the first, "...bacterial strain to denitrify nitrite to N2 and denitrifying nitrite and nitrate to N2O in aerobic condition." and that L7, "...is a promising candidate in the extensive application of various pollution control system including municipal wastewater, aquaculture industry, etc."
To apply that to the product that started this thread it is possible that they have isolated L7 and bottled it in conditions under which it would survive but the substrate (not the same meaning as in our tanks) used to culture the bacteria was very specific. I'm not sure that the environment we would be dumping the stuff into would match what is required for it's survival, let alone proliferation.
Though I now know that at least one strain of bacteria will denitrify aerobically I still remain dubious of bacterial starter products and wonder if their very precise experiment would ever play out naturally in our tanks without continued intervention on the part of the aquarist.
Great find, I love articles like that!
The article begins with a confirmation of what I had thought and then goes on to explain a very specific strain of bacteria.
The removal of nitrogen from wastewater by nitrifiers and denitrifiers was the most efficient method in wastewater treatment. Autotrophic nitrification and anoxic denitrification played important roles in this process. Nitrifiers convert ammonia to nitrite, followed by nitrate. Denitrifiers reduce nitrate to nitrite, finally to N2, in which NO and N2O were the main intermediate products
(Joo et al., 2005). Due to the totally differences in physiology and biochemistry, the nitrifiers and denitrifiers had some disadvantages in the process of nitrogen removal treatment of wastewater. Nitrifiers were sensitive to organic matter (Kulikowska et al., 2010). However, organic compounds were necessary to the denitrifiers. In addition, the growth of nitrifiers relied on oxygen that was toxic to denitrifiers (Lloyd et al., 1987).
The particular strain of aerobic denitrifying bacteria is one they call L7 in the article. It says it was found to produce nitrogen gas in an aerobic environment. Very cool discovery.
GC–MS results showed that N2O was produced on both nitrate (Fig. 2A) and nitrite (Fig. 2B) served as substrate, respectively. The results also indicated that strain L7 emit N2O when 15NH4Cl (HNM, Fig. 2C) and 15NH4Cl plus hydroxylamine (HNM plus hydroxylamine, Fig. 2D) as nitrification substrates. N2O isotopic abundance ratios (Fig. 3) showed that the labeled 15,14N2O, 15,15N2O did appear in the headspace gas of HNM sample, although the abundance of N2O from NH4Cl was far less than that of nitrate, nitrite and NH4Cl plus hydroxylamine (Fig. 2). These results suggested that strain L7 was a heterotrophic nitrification–aerobic denitrifier. It could not only aerobically denitrify nitrate or nitrite to form N2O, but also nitrify ammonia to form N2O, and the later was rarely reported in other strains.
It concludes that this is the first, "...bacterial strain to denitrify nitrite to N2 and denitrifying nitrite and nitrate to N2O in aerobic condition." and that L7, "...is a promising candidate in the extensive application of various pollution control system including municipal wastewater, aquaculture industry, etc."
To apply that to the product that started this thread it is possible that they have isolated L7 and bottled it in conditions under which it would survive but the substrate (not the same meaning as in our tanks) used to culture the bacteria was very specific. I'm not sure that the environment we would be dumping the stuff into would match what is required for it's survival, let alone proliferation.
Though I now know that at least one strain of bacteria will denitrify aerobically I still remain dubious of bacterial starter products and wonder if their very precise experiment would ever play out naturally in our tanks without continued intervention on the part of the aquarist.
Great find, I love articles like that!
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