Newbie Needs Urgent Help!

[RipSlider]

Hello, I wonder if you can help me?

I have decided to go marine, and know that there is a huge amount of work and research that I need to do, but I have a very strict timescale for my first step on the salty path, and I'm hoping to get some quick answers.

I'm having an extension built, and, after a fair bit of reading, have decided to go for a marine tank, and to get as big a tank as possible.

Therefore, I'm going to have a tank that runs the full length of the shortest wall in the new office, which will be 7 foot.

The tank size will be about 7footx3footx2.5foot.

However, the only way I can get the tank into the house is through the new window, which will be glased in six weeks. This leaves me with a fair bit of work and calculation s to be done in a very short length of time!!

I don't want to rush the set up, but the stand the tank comes from is NASTY, and so I'm looking to get a carpenter in to build me a nice base for it, directly into the wall. I figure it would also be a good idea to have a second ring main laid in by the electrician ( in 7 weeks ) so I need to work out some of the basics.


Please could someone help me with some questions?

1) how high should the tank be off the floor to fit in all the equipment I will need, especially the skimmer?
2) How large a sump should I have?
3) Can sumps be crammed into a small space, or is it useful to have plenty of space around/above it?
4) How many plug sockets will I need. Roughly?


I know that I should get the tank drilled now, but I can't organise it in time, and I don't want to be rushed into making a wrong choice before I've planned it properly. I can get holes "drilled" at any future point by a guy in town who can etch holes with hydrofloric acid.

Also, can anyone reccommend any good books or web sites that can help me with my research?

many thanks indeed.

Steve

 

[Aquascaper]

Hi Steve,

Welcome first of all, glad to have another 'Pond' man coming

Onto the questions.......................

1) Height - You want the tank to be at eye level ideally but consideration needs to be taken with regards to maintenance in the tank (you have to be able to reach the bottom) and also light spill if the tank lights are not going to be mounted behind a false wall (ie. above the tank but behind a screen that comes down to water level).
With regards to the skimmer question it depends how high your skimmer is and what type, judging by the size of the tank it will have to be big so it will not be in-sump so can be mounted away from the tank using an inline pump.

2) The size of the needs to be as large as possible to accomodate all the equipment, etc. but there is no real 'ideal', just the bigger the better.


3) You will invariably need to do maintenance in the sump so make sure that there is room to get in to do it (remembering the light fittings and plumbing will take up some of that space)

4) Absolutely no idea (I used 16 sockets on my 120g (4' x 2' x 2'))

The best thing would be if you could post a list of the equipment you are planning to purchase and then we can be of more help.

I would advise getting all the drilling done prior to getting the tank in as it will require some weirs, etc. to be siliconed in as well and it will be a lot easier for the carpenter to build the stand to accomdate the plumbing, etc. if it's all ready to be done when mounted.

6 weeks should be plenty of time to design and plan it all

 

[RipSlider]

Aquascaper.

Many thanks for the help so far.

For equipment, as yet I have no idea, whcih I guess is no help to you.

The situation I find myself in is where I can get the tank and so I'm going to grab the oppurtunity if I can. I've done a fair bit of reading so far, and the main lesson I've leanred is that I still have a lot to learn. With that in mind, I'm not going to make any rush decisons.

This leaves me with problems, for example getting the tank drilled, but I figure I only get one shot at dealing with a tank this big, and I would need to get the tank to the guy that could drill it by next week in order for me to get it back in time. As it is, I don't want to be that hurried and find out in 6 months that I really wished I did something differently, or I messed up somewhere, so the first priority is get the tank in and on a platform so that herself can work around it, and then I can take my time doing it right once at the right pace and after a lot more learning.

As a rough idea at the moment, I think that I will have a sump made from a 4x12x18 tank, which hopefully will proide enough space for what I need. I think that with that sort of size of sump, I should be able to get the chippy to box out 5 foot of the frame for all the equipment, and leave 2 foot for drawers.

As far as the chippy goes, I guess I will have to see what he can suggest that will give me the greatest future flexibility. I really wish I didn't have to work like this, but this would seem to be the only oppurtunity for her indoors to give the OK to getting a tank like this, so I do need to work around the situation.

One of my main considerations at the moment is that the room that the tank will be in will be an office/spare bedroom, so I do need what ever system I build to be quiet. Potentially this means that I would have to go without the skimmer, and use a "live" sump system instead, but I'm not sure if this is feasible.

I will be putting in as big a fuild bed filter as I can, or possibly a chain of two of them, which should help a lot and will be totally silent. Apart from that I haven't really got any further.

The plug sockets issue suprises me! What do you use 16 sockets for

We're already having the office wired like a work office, with a cable tidy running all around the wall, so I can run a second ring main from it and get plenty of plugs added and then gang them up with 6-way adaptors. Many thanks for the heads up on this one, it's already changed my plans!!

Can I ask what may be a silly question?

What sort of filtration/hardware would you/the rest of the baord reccommend I research, given the fact itr must support a large tank and be pretty quiet? Economy also figures in there somewhere as well.

Also, another question. I know this is going to cost me a massive chunk of money. I have budgetted £5000, and can strech to £6000 if the worst comes to the worst. Is this enough for such a large tank? Does is greatly limit my options? The tank is paid for already, so doesn't count in the figure.

Lastly, how much space do you think I need to leave at the sides of the tank? will 6 inches be enough?

Many thanks indeed.

Steve

 

[SkiFletch]

Wow Steve, well let me start by saying I've never had a tank of your size before but I'll offer my oppinions for what they're worth and try and help out

If I were you, the FIRST thing I'd be considering is weight. You're talking about nearly a 400 gallon tank there which is going to look awesome. However, you need to consider weight when supporting this tank. You'll want to go with at least 400lbs of LR (live rock), the display tank water weight will be around 4000lbs, and your sump of those dimensions will be around another 1000lbs. Add in equipment weight and stand weight and sand, and you're easily supporting a 5000 lb structure. Make sure you're working with a very skilled carpenter who knows how to account for that weight.

As far as wall sockets, you'll need a bunch for lighting, heating, powerheads, sump pumps, skimmer, sump lights, a whoe myriad of things. I'd say for a tank that size you'd want a minimum of a 20amp service. But I'm in the US so at your guys' standard 220v you'd probably have 10amp service or more.

For a tank of that size, I have no clue if a protein skimmer is needed or not. Your LR is your primary filtration, and growing some macro algae in your sump helps lower nitrate buildup. Cleanup crew organisms take care of the detritus (snails, crabs, shrimp, filter feeders, etc).

As for drilling the tank, if you cant get it drilled and have to setup an overflow box its not the end of the world. If you can get it drilled, have it done somewhere below the waterline but near the top. I've never had one drilled, so I'll have to let other members comment there. I'm making my own overflow box .

Lastly, as far as room around the tank, I'm not sure. There's only 3 inches between my tank and the wall, but then again mine's a mere 45 gallon and I have skinny arms

 

[Aquascaper]

I think it would be a good idea to PM Navarre as he has a 7 foot tank atm and he will be able to give you ideas as to the cost and type of equipment reuired as well as how to re-enforce the floor (god, that was fun )
There's ways of cutting costs but the biggest expense will be your live rock. I would suggest trying to get an LFS to order direct from their supplier for you as you'll get a much better deal (especially if you buy it all at once). Any LFS worth their salt should do this for you as they will realise that you're going to have to stock the 7 footer at some point too

As for quiet......................forget it
The water flowing through the overflow is bad enough but combine that with the return pump, powerheads, fans, etc. it tends to get a little noisy to say the least. There is ways to quieten the tank but it will always make noise, I could never sleep in the same room as my 120g

 

[RipSlider]

Ski,

Many thanks for the response. I'd worked out the weight roughtly ( not thought of the live rock ) and it helps I'm building onto a concrete floor which is 5 inches deep. I'll be getting the chippy to build a load spreader, so that the weight is passed into as large an area as possible, rather than just directly down some beams. The whole strucuitre will be bouind into the walls, but also onto a 1in sheet of marine ply on the floor as well.

I've already had a chat with the guy, and we thing that pine, or any softwood, beaming won't be up to it. I had a good look at the nasty stand that the tank came with, which does seem to be in softwood, but we thing that it will be best to build it in hardwood, so I am currently looking fore a source of 3x4 inch oak beams.


The drilling I think I can wait for. There is a chap who works at my old uni, and also offers a commercial service, that allows a whole of any diamaetr to be drilled into an existing piece of glass using acid. I can get "rates for mates" off him, so will take this route when I need to.

As for space around it, I'm currently thinking that I will need about 6inches at either side, and 6 inches at the back. Can you see any issues with this?

Thanks again.

Steve

 

[Aquascaper]

Just remember that you are not only going to have to drill the glass but also the tank stand and be able to get in to fit all the plumbing connections and pipework.

Could you post a sketch of how you plan on plumbing the tank to the sump?

 

[SkiFletch]

So the weight of the tank is going to be supported by the wall ? Damn... Will there be any posts and beams supporting the front of the tank furthest from the wall? I dont know of any other way, but if you can figure one out, more power to you . Remember to strenthen your studs in your wall and consider doubling the amount of them. Here in the US we tend to make walls that are 16" apart on center with 2x4's, but for supporting a tank like that via the wall, I would probably put some 4x4's half way between the 2x4's. I'd love to see what you and your carpenter come up with

 

[Navarre]

OK seems like a nice sized puddle you are gonna have there! My tank is 7x2x2.5 so its still some way off of your intended mammoth!
You seem to have done your homework on the supports etc. You dont mention whether the walls are brick or wooden (i know many USA homes are wooden based whilst UK are brick walled).

Just make sure that the height of the tank takes into consideration the depth you have to reach down to clean it and do maintenance.. You can be sure that you will have to collect things from the bottom and they always go to the farthest spot to reach! Depth is bad enough but when its at the bottom and the back of the tank its time ot get the snorkel out

Lots of liverock.. this will be your main bank buster! If you buy in large quantities you will surely get good discounted rates.
Also be aware that you need a sump that can handle the surface area of the maintank and alos the remaining water that will be in the pipes. If you use an overflow wier system then the water level will only drop a fraction but in a large tank like this you will still easily have a back syphon of 30 gallons or so! (possibly more). Run your sump only half full so it can accomodate the back syphon should a power out occur.

So the main expense is liverock.. next i would say is your circulation. For a tank of this size there is simply only 1 way to do this IMO and its Tunze streams. get yourself a control box and no less than 2 but prefferably 4 powerheads. Very expensive but they will do the work for you and low on power consumption. (considering each powerhead can shift 12,000 ltrs per hours they really are the business)

Halides are also a good option and for this i would recomend 3x 250 watts or if you can afford more then opt for 400w.

Skimmer.. well really that is up to you.. If you have a skimmer in the sump then make sure you keep in mind the height of the stand. It not only needs to be height enough to get a skimmer under the stand but it also has to be high enough to get the collection cup on and off of the skimmer.

Drilling the tank can be done after its been placed in the room. Simply drill directly through its base. Most lfs that offer drilling will come out to do this. If not then buy a drill bit and do the job yourself.

 

[Aquascaper]

I know I keep coming back to this but I feel it's rather important.....

If you drill the tank in situ you're going to have problems plumbing the tank as it's not quite as simple as drilling through the glass bottom then through the wooden base. The glass hole maybe only 1 1/2" but the hole in the stand will need to be around 3" to allow for the bulkhead fittments.

The only way to combat this will be to carefully plan the position of each hole, I would suggest two holes in each corner for the outflow and, depending on the return pump size, several holes along the front for the inflows. A lot will depend on the return pump size, if you go for a small pump then a single return pipe would be best but if you are looking at a large pump (pool pumps, etc.) then the multiple floor outlets would work better IMO.

Just make sure the carpenter is aware of this when placing braces, etc. for the stand and get the holes drilled before the tank is mounted.

 

[JJ1234567]

It seems your planning on glass for your set up so you can take some liberties with the base. Glass doesnt need the entire bottom supported on a solid base like acrylic does, so you can pre drill some holes in the base where you think you might want to run piping. Save you some trouble in the long run.

 

[windsor-aquatic]

It seems your planning on glass for your set up so you can take some liberties with the base. Glass doesnt need the entire bottom supported on a solid base like acrylic does, so you can pre drill some holes in the base where you think you might want to run piping. Save you some trouble in the long run.

Whilst this may be the case with USA and Canadian built tanks, it is not so with most UK ones. The construction methods are quite different, and most UK-built tanks require support under the entire base. Incidentally, the original post mentioned the difficulty of getting the tank into the premises. Why can't the tank be built in situ? This forms a significant proportion of our business, and is often the easier option.

 

[RipSlider]

I think basically becuase there is a tank already made, and the enviroment that it will be built in will be unclear for up to three months, which would lead to me not trusting the quality of the seals if they were contaminated.

Also, if I/ person X builds me a tank in situ, I have less recourse legals and financially if there is a disaster and the tank cracks/expoldes. There is simply too much water in the tank not to have an insurance backed guarentee and legal recourse if there was an issue. I estimate it would cover the whole of the grou8nd floor in about 1 inch of water. New carpet time at the least.....

I know this sounds mercanary, but It's one of the conditions of my getting the tank.


Steve

 

[Aquascaper]

A professional tank builder would give you a guarantee as well but I know where you're coming from, as the room is being done up as well and you can get the tank in there's no difference really.
Is the option of placing it on the floor while drilling, etc. takes place available? That would make life a lot easier for whoevers doing the drilling and siliconing. It will make painting the back glass a hell of a lot easier too. Once complete you can then just lift it up and onto the stand all finished.
Either that or get the drilling, etc. done before it even comes to your place?

 

[RipSlider]

I can't get it drilled before hand, as it will be 5 weeks before I could get it started, and they would want the tank for a week, which means it would be too late.

I'm not sure if it will go on the floor, simply becuase it's going to be a bit lumpy until the floor is skimmed, which will/is planned to happen after the tank is in. However, it might be OK if it's not filled with water.

Actaully, that might work out better, as it will give me more time. Is there such a service as an "at home tank drillers"? I'm not really prepared to be drilling big holes through 11mm glass!

Thanks

Steve