Newbie Needs Advice, Wcmm Flicking

[doggiebag]

HI

I have a 25 litre tank with 6 wcmm (3 golden, 3 normal)

It has been cycling for 60 days and has just reached the point of 0 ammonia and nitrite, literally 2 days into qualifying week......ammonia never peaked more than 0.50 nor did nitrite. Ph is 8.0, nitrates 20. I did partial water changes daily, amount depended on readings......usually between 15% and 50%.........the fish all seemed fine with no deaths during cycling, thank goodness.

Yesterday I noticed one female flicking, she was darting at the ornament, twisting as she got to it and darting back off....she did this a few times in the course of an hour, so I removed her to a small spare tank for observation. Last night I noticed a male darting and bouncing off the filter, removed him. Today another male flicked off a plastic plant, so I put the other two back in as it now looks like I have to treat the whole tank............

trouble is, Im not too sure what it is, I was thinking gill/body flukes or parasites, so was going to med with Sterazin........though it could also be early signs of ich or velvet from what Ive read........I do have Protozin too, but which to use?

Tank also had 2 nerite snails, I am guessing they need to be removed before meds are added? I decided to hold off until someone can advise me what to do next..... Just checked Protozin says remove snails, Sterazin doesn't, so can I leave them in if I use Sterazin?

Fish all seem okay, no clamped fins or fast breathing, the males tend to hold their fins partially closed unless displaying anyway but females never do, their fins are fully open, even the one that flicks. The males are still displaying and they all play. Haven't noticed any stringy white poo, but then I rarely see them poo anyway as it breaks off quick. They are all eating, nothing to point to ill health apart from the flicking, which has gone from 1 to 3 fish in the past day that I have noticed the first issue, it may be there was mild flicking before but I never noticed it.....come to think of it the second male did bounce off the filter a few days ago, but I didn't really think much of it, it was the female flicking off the ornament that alerted me.

I have shone a torch at them and can't see any white spots or golden dust, trouble is the golden wcmm are white and have a golden shimmer anyway, so pretty hard to say on them.

Gills seem okay, are slightly red but not much more than usual I would say.....no sunken stomachs.........all swim, eat play happily just the odd flicking from 3 of them at the moment........

The snails were only added last night so it can't be them bringing something in as the first female showed signs before then, plus I have read nerites rarely carry flukes due to their tiny size.......I did add a moss ball about a week ago, before I added it I did soak in a solution of Sterazin for a few hours just in case, but maybe it didn't work and something was in there anyway......

I have sterazin, myxazin, protozin, melafix, interpet internal bac med, aquarium salt, epsom salts and stress coat in my fish cupboard, just in case.....so plenty of meds if I should need them.

I think Sterazin might be the way to go but will not add anything until I get more advice.

thanks to anyone who can help.

Updated: just watched the male flicking on ornament. He is not rubbing his body or flicking full lenght of body against things, it is just the face area only that touches the objects they flick against. The female turned so she could get side of face, which made me think of flukes.......this info might help

update: started first dose of sterazin today, as advised on coldwater forum.

There is now a pattern to the flashing, watched 2 fish flash against decor and both were making contact with their faces, mostly underside of chin.....there is also erratic swimming, more darting and flicking behaviour. Not sure if this helps diagnosis......gill flukes seem to be the favourite.....


EDITED TO ADD: so sorry, I think I may have put this in the wrong place as they are coldwater......feel free to move it to correct area................sorry once again, my mistake.

 

[SimoUK]

i had a cardinal tetra that was darting around and rolling over, but i mean swimming upside down, i woke up this morning and it was just lying on the bottom of the tank i had moved it to on its own, and it was beyond rescuing when i got it out there was no reaction from it or anythiong, it was just breathing but not moving it at all, so eventually erlier this morning i just put it out of its misery in a humain way, hope yours gets better.

and is a 20litre really big enough for WCMMs?

Good luck

 

[doggiebag]

Thank you.
its a 25 litre, the lfs said I could have 12 in there but I stopped at 6, thank goodness, now I know a bit more thanks to this forum.............I have just gotten a slightly bigger tank which I am going to fishless cycle (35-40 litre)and upgrade them to. I also think my hubby is buying a much bigger tank at xmas so they may get 2 upgrades over the coming months.

 

[SimoUK]

a 35-40 litre long should be fine aslong as it is well filtered, but i really dont know what u cud treat with, wait and see if anyone else replies, as i say my cardinal tetra that had these symptoms was already past the rescue point before i could medicate. if noone replies, ask in your LFS see what they have to say

good luck

 

[doggiebag]

I think if no one replies I may try the sterazin, it seems to fit more than anything else, but would prefer some more experienced advice.
As I say they don't really appear ill, I would never have known there was anything wrong if I hadn't seen the flicking, so am hoping I can successfully treat whatever it is.......I know water conditions can cause flicking too, but their water is now testing great, they never showed any signs of this while cycling, though it may be an after effect.....

I wonder if its parasites/flukes from the moss ball, if they survived the few hours sterazin soak.......they fish have never shown any problems for the 60 days I had them till yesterday and the moss ball was added a week ago.


Good to hear the 35-40 litre will be better, just want the best for them, love those little guys. Won't tell hubby that though, otherwise I may not get the bigger tank at xmas lol

 

[mattlee]

i jusy had the same probs with 4 of my blue rams, flicking but no signs of ich or flukes...... i turned my temp up to 30 degrees and added protozin treatment, my snails and shrimp survived but the flicking continued but not as often so i was advised to add wormer plus and anti internel bacteria (interpet) as these can be used at the same time.... today i have seen no flicking and fish seem ok and snails and shrimp survived again how hard are my snails and shrimps..... make sure you remove any carbon from filter when treating any meds.

still dont know what it was but so far so good, although i did loose 2 rams inbetween meds when away for the weekend..... (r.i.p)

 

[doggiebag]

those snails are hard, protozin has copper in it doesn't it, blimey, they did well lol, so sorry to hear you lost some fish, thats always sad.

I have removed all decor in preparation for meds as I know they can stain sometimes lol I've spent too much already to stain it all green or blue. Just waiting for confirmation of treatments etc then will start. They seem happy enough, exploring a new ornament that is dark enough to resist staining, loving it and playing round it. but I know how quick these things can go, don't wanna lose them, just as Im cycled too. though Im expecting some ammonai now as I removed the decor, might have depleted the bacteria a teeny bit.

Hoping wise Wilder will turn up soon, she's fab !!

 

[mattlee]

it was wilder that recommended the wormer plus and aib treatments, she was very patient and helped me out along the way but obviously i would wait and se if you hear from someone with a bit more experience than myself..... goodluck

 

[doggiebag]

it was wilder that recommended the wormer plus and aib treatments, she was very patient and helped me out along the way but obviously i would wait and se if you hear from someone with a bit more experience than myself..... goodluck

thanks mate, yeah she is great, she helped me recently with my betta who is now doing really well, just gotta get through the rest of the cycle with him now.


WILDER: if you see this and you think I should dose with sterazin, I have a few more moss balls and java moss bought at same time, should I add it all to the tank and dose it with minnows so it rids the plants of any nasties that may have caused this?

I think I may just have seen something float in tank, look red and about 3mm long and flatish at sides, I swear I saw it move when it landed, scooped it out and put on paper and it squished easy, so it may just have been fish poo lol I thought it was a leech at first......

 

[doggiebag]

have been advised by a moderator in coldwater forum to treat for gill flukes first. So that would be sterazin, as it covers gill and body flukes as well as internal parasites.........not sure whether to add rest of plants and treat them all, there is plenty of space in tank to do so. Then my new moss will be safe after the 10 day treatment.

Will try to hang on for you Wilder, as I value your opinion. I really want to get them started though, as it went from 1 to 3 fish in 2 days. Want to get on while they are still strong.

 

[doggiebag]

update: started first dose of sterazin today, as advised on coldwater forum.

There is now a pattern to the flashing, watched 2 fish flash against decor and both were making contact with their faces, mostly underside of chin.....there is also erratic swimming, more darting and flicking behaviour. Not sure if this helps diagnosis......gill flukes seem to be the favourite.....

 

[doggiebag]

Okay an update:

I have just added day 10 of the sterazin, its the last dose.........I have sat this afternoon and watched them for a bit. The silver male minnow is still flicking, not whole body, just flicking off the surfaces not shimming along them just a touch off type movement, not rubbing along whole body, although I didn't see any more doing it I guess they must be affected still too. They have not displayed this behaviour in the previous 56 or so days I had them, just 12 days ago till today......

They still feed okay, swim fine and fins okay, they still display to each other. The males have partially clamped fins, but always do unless they display. I see nothing unusual in how they look. Very hard to see golden dust on them as they have that anyway (some golden minnows in there and normal ones are highly metallic), so hard to say, but I am guessing after 10 days, if it was velvet they would look pretty ill by now. I see no white spots and they really don't look any worse 10 days on......just this occasional erratic swimming, like they are irritated, sort of dashing, then the flicking off objects.

What do I do now? I am desperate for help. I am at my wits ends and really have no idea what to try now. Sterazin is a pretty broad spectrum treatment and I hoped it would work.

I do have Waterlife Protozan, I also just got some Esha2000..........

 

[Purity]

I would medicate with eSHA 2000 and if that clears up the disease, I would add Aloe Vera into the tank, as I have used this and trust it's soothing properties.

 

[doggiebag]

I would medicate with eSHA 2000 and if that clears up the disease, I would add Aloe Vera into the tank, as I have used this and trust it's soothing properties.

You have echoed my thoughts, I was feeling it may be best to give it 48 hours, as the last dose went in today, then do a large waterchange, run carbon for 24 hours then do the 3 day course of esha 2000. I use tetra aquasafe, that has added aloe doesn't it, is that okay do you think?

I have been watching them for the past hour and seen no more flicking, so it may be reduced....haven't seen any others doing it yet.......they have all been playing and displaying like crazy, they really seem great apart from this odd bout of flicking here and there........only just got the esha 2000 yesterday too, good job I did......