New tropical keeper - compatible fish?

[jadelyn_]

To cut a long story short, I'm an experienced goldfish keeper who currently maintains a goldfish pond and a grow-out tank. When my current babies are big enough to go in the pond I plan to change up the tank and either go for tropicals (ideally, as I've never kept tropical before) or fancy goldfish.

However, even with hours of research, I'm still at a loss as to what fish would be suitable together!

Tank information:
Make: Juwel Vision 180
Litres: 180
Filter: Internal
Lighting: LEDs
I also have an array of plants growing in another 100L tank including amazon sword, moss balls, elodea densa, etc, which will hopefully be added to the tank if I go tropical (they're not added now because the baby goldfish would destroy them haha!) and upgrade the lights.

My original intention was to go with Gouramis (I like the blue Opaline and Dwarf Gouramis), but after research it seems as though many people believe that they shouldn't be kept in tanks together because of aggression, even when keeping 1 male and a few females. I was also planning on a breeding angelfish pair but, again, it seems that they are likely to kill other fish? And Gouramis and Angelfish aren't compatible?

I have no interest in keeping live-bearers like guppies or mollies. I prefer getting bigger fish with distinctive markings/personalities so I can tell them apart (typical goldfish keeper!), but I wouldn't mind a shoal alongside a few distinct individuals. Obviously I'm also aware that my tank isn't huge. With so many different fish available, and countless hours of circling aimlessly on the internet, I'm at a loss of what to do and what fish can actually go with what.

Any advice?

Thank you!

 

[Byron]

My original intention was to go with Gouramis (I like the blue Opaline and Dwarf Gouramis), but after research it seems as though many people believe that they shouldn't be kept in tanks together because of aggression, even when keeping 1 male and a few females. I was also planning on a breeding angelfish pair but, again, it seems that they are likely to kill other fish? And Gouramis and Angelfish aren't compatible?

I'll respond to this question first, then get to the main issue. No, gourami and angelfish should not be together. Main reason is that they are remarkably similar in temperament. Males are territorial, and depending upon the individual fish, or upon the species in the case of gourami, this can be highly aggressive territorial behaviour. It is within species, but also crosses species especially with gourami.

A 180 liter (roughly 50 gallon) tank could house a breeding pair of angelfish, but nothing else. If you want angelfish in general and not a specific breeding pair, I would not recommend it. Angelfish are shoaling fish, living in smallish groups ("smallish" compared to fish like characins) and to be "natural" they should be maintained in groups of at least five, but that means a larger space. So aside from a breeding pair, I would not go with angelfish.

To the gourami, the Blue is one of the most aggressive species. There are many varieites produced from the natural species Trichopodus trichopterus, such as Blue, Gold, Three-Spot, Cosby, Marble, etc. They are all the same species so all potentially feisty. One male and two or three females of the same variety could manage, unless you get particularly aggressive fish (cannot tell until they are together in the tank, though this may be evident in the store tank); I have heard from others of a female suddenly killing every other gourami and then turning to other fish species.

The Dwarf Gourami, Trichogaster lalius, is a real risk for the non-treatable iridovirus. If you get the fish from a reliable breeder this can be avoided, but I would not recommend purchasing fish from a store unless you know where they came from (the breeder). The Honey Gourami is safer from this aspect, and more peaceful too. The dwarf can sometimes get feisty.

There are many other species of gourami, and one of the most beautiful among all fish is the Pearl, Trichopodus leerii. You will see this is the same genus as that often-nasty Blue Gourami, but PEarls are much more reliably peaceful, at least for gourami. A group of five or six, with two males and three or four females, would be lovely in a planted tank. You could go with floating plants and no substrate-rooted, but lots of chunks of wood and branches, and dried leaves, for a very authentic habitat. Floating plants are mandatory for all gourami, they "expect" them. As these reduce light, and these fish do not appreciate bright overhead lighting, lower plants like crypts, ferns, mosses work best.

I would not have other gourami with the Pearls. But there are still many other species, some much smaller, and some of these can go together. I had good luck with Chocolate Gourami and the pygmy Sparkling Gourami together for several years. The former is a very specialist-requirement fish, which brings me to water parameters and your other question.

I have no interest in keeping live-bearers like guppies or mollies. I prefer getting bigger fish with distinctive markings/personalities so I can tell them apart (typical goldfish keeper!), but I wouldn't mind a shoal alongside a few distinct individuals. Obviously I'm also aware that my tank isn't huge. With so many different fish available, and countless hours of circling aimlessly on the internet, I'm at a loss of what to do and what fish can actually go with what.

First thing in selecting any fish is knowing your water parameters for the source water. GH (general hardness) can be crucial for many species. KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) is also worth knowing, primarily because this buffers pH, and that brings us to the pH. Important, but usually workable if not extreme once the GH is settled.

It will be easier to suggest possible fish groupings once the parameters are known. Check with your water authority if you don't happen to know these now, they may be posted on their website.

Byron.

 

[Brianna121426]

My favorite (and easiest) experience with tropical fish is tetras. And there's so many different kinds, you could create a nice array of color and patterns. I have a mixed fruit tetra in my ten gallon tank with a pair of guppies and a pair of platies and it has been the easiest fish I've ever had. However, neon tetras die so easily, mine lasted 8 hours. But they aren't hardy fish. Tetras would be good for tropical beginners. I started with guppies and had a lot of issues with aggression. Disc shaped tetras are so fun to watch too. Although I believe most like to be in schools.

 

[NickAu]

I have a mixed fruit tetra in my ten gallon tank with a pair of guppies and a pair of platies

Tetras prefer soft water while live bearers prefer hard water, 10 gallon is way too small for Platies.

Disc shaped tetras are so fun to watch too.

By disk shaped do you mean Black widow tetra or similar? 10 gallons is way to small for these also.

Although I believe most like to be in schools.

All tetras need to be kept in groups, some people say 6 minimum nut I think thats nonsense you need at least 10 the more the merrier.

However, neon tetras die so easily, mine lasted 8 hours

There is a major issue with water quality if your tetras die in 8 hours.

pair of guppies and a pair of platies

Are these male female pairs?

Live bearers need at least 2 females for every male

 

[jadelyn_]

Thank you very much for your in-depth response, Byron, it's much appreciated. I wanted to do some background research and get my facts straight before going to my LFS so I know what's suitable and what isn't for my tank size, parameters and species compatibility.

There are many other species of gourami, and one of the most beautiful among all fish is the Pearl, Trichopodus leerii. You will see this is the same genus as that often-nasty Blue Gourami, but PEarls are much more reliably peaceful, at least for gourami. A group of five or six, with two males and three or four females, would be lovely in a planted tank. You could go with floating plants and no substrate-rooted, but lots of chunks of wood and branches, and dried leaves, for a very authentic habitat. Floating plants are mandatory for all gourami, they "expect" them. As these reduce light, and these fish do not appreciate bright overhead lighting, lower plants like crypts, ferns, mosses work best.

I would not have other gourami with the Pearls. But there are still many other species, some much smaller, and some of these can go together. I had good luck with Chocolate Gourami and the pygmy Sparkling Gourami together for several years. The former is a very specialist-requirement fish, which brings me to water parameters and your other question.

The Pearl Gouramis are pretty fish. I'll try to do a bit more research into them, I can't say I've seen many of them in my LFS (I tend to see the more aggressive opaline/spotted/golden etc, and the Dwarf gouramis) but I'm sure I could find them somewhere if that's what I eventually decided on. Ultimately though, I don't want to get a fish that's going to be unhappy in my tank, so I'll dig in and do some research on it.

As for my water parameters, the GH is hard where I live (I didn't know the exact hardness so I googled it: 210mg/l CaCO₃). The average pH in my area is 7.6 (confirmed with liquid water test too), but the water report shows it has been up to 8 before. I'm not sure about the KH though.

My favorite (and easiest) experience with tropical fish is tetras. And there's so many different kinds, you could create a nice array of color and patterns. I have a mixed fruit tetra in my ten gallon tank with a pair of guppies and a pair of platies and it has been the easiest fish I've ever had. However, neon tetras die so easily, mine lasted 8 hours. But they aren't hardy fish. Tetras would be good for tropical beginners. I started with guppies and had a lot of issues with aggression. Disc shaped tetras are so fun to watch too. Although I believe most like to be in schools.

Tetras are pretty! I was hoping to just get a few bigger fish or at least shoaling fish/small fish + a few bigger ones. I like to name my fish and understand their individual personalities - I'm a typical goldfish keeper! ;w; Though I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with neon tetras. It's a shame because they're really pretty! A shoal of them looks so nice!

 

[NickAu]

You could try a Betta sorority. In a 180 liter tank you could easily have 12 female Bettas.

 

[jadelyn_]

You could try a Betta sorority. In a 180 liter tank you could easily have 12 female Bettas.

I've heard about keeping female Bettas together but I wasn't sure exactly how it worked. A work colleague has a Betta sorority tank (not sure if she has other fish too or not) and she had problems with them fighting in hers?

Another friend of mine keeps African Cichlids but they just constantly attack each other and she's constantly rehoming fish and losing fish from the others killing one. They spawn a lot and she's offered me the babies but I honestly don't think I could deal with it.

 

[Byron]

The GH at 210 mg/l (= ppm, a common unit in the hobby, or 12 dGH) is on the hard side but not impossible. According to SF site, Pearls can manage with this, so that is still an option. Finding tankmates will not be easy though, as the most useful shoaling fish for gourami tankmates are similarly-quiet (non-active swimmers) fish like rasbora, or some of the tetras, and these might be wild caught and thus more likely to require softer water. But it is still not impossible with some thought. Here's a link to the SF page on the Pearl:
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trichopodus-leerii/

 

[jadelyn_]

The GH at 210 mg/l (= ppm, a common unit in the hobby, or 12 dGH) is on the hard side but not impossible. According to SF site, Pearls can manage with this, so that is still an option. Finding tankmates will not be easy though, as the most useful shoaling fish for gourami tankmates are similarly-quiet (non-active swimmers) fish like rasbora, or some of the tetras, and these might be wild caught and thus more likely to require softer water. But it is still not impossible with some thought. Here's a link to the SF page on the Pearl:
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trichopodus-leerii/

Thank you!

So, if I scrapped the Gourami idea entirely, would there be any other tropical fish that would be suitable for my set up and water conditions? And I'm assuming I'll be looking for small fish that don't nip fins to go with the Gourami if I did go for that, but not too small to fit in their mouth?

 

[Byron]

Thank you!

So, if I scrapped the Gourami idea entirely, would there be any other tropical fish that would be suitable for my set up and water conditions? And I'm assuming I'll be looking for small fish that don't nip fins to go with the Gourami if I did go for that, but not too small to fit in their mouth?

On the small fish with Pearl Gourami, aside from the soft water requirement for some of them, size is not an issue. It has been many years since I had a group of Pearls (seriously thinking about it again, next time a suitable tank in my fish room is "available") but I don't believe they are likely to go running down small fish. I wouldn't probably risk the dwarf rasboras in the genus Boraras, but thinking more of the lovely Harlequin and its two close cousins, and similar rasbora species. Finding suitable tetras considering the GH might be much easier. Some of these are being commercially raised now, which sometimes makes it a bit easier, to some extent. The disk-shaped species like Rosy Tetra, Roberti Tetra, the Red and/or Black Phantom Tetras, etc. For the substrate, a group of cory catfish? The common (smaller) Whiptail, Rineloricaria parva (not the larger "Royal" species)? I'm rather fond of this fish, and always have one or a couple in my South American tank. The variety called Red Lizard is quite lovely with its brown-red colouration (mine have not stayed the rather bright red they were initially, but still a neat little pleco); they all get along with themselves and any other fish.

Back to the medium-sized fish instead of gourami...the neotropical cichlids generally prefer soft water, though the Bolivian Ram might work--but these are not "showy" like the gourami would be, and you would want only one (this species is ideal in solitary) or a bonded pair, so not a lot of "attention" in the tank, and they remain close to the substrate. The Pearls are mid-to-upper level fish, an area not always easy to fill. [Obviously I'm leaning you toward Pearl Gourami... ]

Another group are some of the Rainbowfish. I've little experience with these [we have a member who does know them very well, can't remember who at the moment, drat] and some need space for active swimming, but there are some lovely fish within the Atherinids. Some prefer water like you have, some softer, and they come in all sizes.

Byron.

 

[Tonianna]

After I lost all my fish due to one fish I got given which ate them all I rehomed him and started new tropical tanks atmo I have one tank that has 3 female Mollies 2 male mollies 2 female bettas and 1 male betta and they all get alone great there's no fighting what so ever and plantly of room for them all to swim about and enough plants etc in it for the female bettas to hide in if need be and a light with a switch so it can be turned of at nightso the female bettas can rest . I also have another tank with the same set up with only 2 female betta and 1 male betta together as they get along together just not with the other fish in my other tank. It all depends on tank size and decorations etc that you put in there ,you can pretty much put any tropical fish with a betta . I no someone who has a 350l tank just full of male n female bettas with a few guppys mollies and zebra fish and they all get along great.