Tommy Gun
Fish Crazy
I honestly do not want to keep fueling this debate because it doesn't holistically pertain to the thread's original content, but like you, I wanted to clear some things up....
While I certainly could be completely wrong about this, my brand of logic is telling me that 7 to 30 hours is a very large "window" and I would think that if it is possible to clone cells and such, it shouldn't be that hard to narrow that down quite a bit. Scientists definitely seem to have a firm grasp on the reproduction rates of Heterotrophic bacteria (also a beneficial bacteria under the right circumstances)
We also need to realize that these estimations are based upon the reproduction of nitrifying bacteria under ideal circumstances. One part of that idea situation is an increase in water temperature where as our fish may not be able to thrive. In fact, all but one of those resources you provided clearly include the term "optimal"
In any case, my point here is that saying a population of bacteria will double exactly in 24 hours in hindered by the fact that all of the needed ammonia is not instant. What this means is the beneficial bacteria are growing at a similar rate as ammonia production and so this is why it is commonly suggested to wait a week or more before adding any new fish.
So yea, I admit that I was wrong on that reproduction rate, but my point is still valid - we cannot add a bunch of fish today and expect that by this time tomorrow, all will be well. Besides, I am 100% sure that you have read/heard of people who struggle with ammonia and nitrites for much longer than a day.....sometimes even weeks or months. Now my argument has changed to say that we are both right. Additionally.....
I never meant to imply that ammonia or nitrite poisoning leads to sudden death (although some other chemicals might)....obviously I have read/heard/experienced fish who are suffering from the presence of these chemicals until I can fix that, or they die. However, I am only saying that it is very possible that the fish could die within 24 hours or less.
Again, I disagree and believe most people would agree with me when I say small amounts of ammonia and/or nitrite can cause damage to our fish:
Third paragraph within this article (ammonia)
First paragraph under sub-heading 'nitrite'
Click here to see some information that clearly states that adding too many fish at once can lead to ammonia problems (the first paragraph under the sub-heading Ammonia Poisoning)
I simply said that it is a bad idea to do in a display tank, but it might not matter if you add it to a quarantine tank. Obviously the main gist of having a quarantine tank is to keep issues/ailments out of a display tank AND this idea is based upon the principle that we need to separate fish because of potential problems that we cannot predict, nor see with the naked eye (I only know a few people who would buy a fish that is obviously sick)
Here is my problem.....even though I agree that your method may be less risky, it seemed to me that you were trying to say that because you do it, anyone can do it; quarantine tank or not. That is all I am trying to clarify here.
Honestly, this is definitely an exaggeration so let's look at Ich as an example...
Keep in mind that Ich is NOT always in an aquarium - it can only survive in water so it cannot find its way to your tank randomly and has to be introduced by us....generally in the form of adding fish, water, decor, plants, etc. that came from another tank with ich. You are also fooling yourself if you think the LFS tank has never held ich in the past or presently and hence, you could be bringing some home with you.
Don't be fooled by this optical illussion...even though you do not see any white spots on your fish, this doesn't mean ich isn't present because your fish have a strong ability to fight it off when it is healthy. Again, all of these precautions are built upon the foundation of our trying to avoid something that is largely unseen.
Also an exaggeration and is waaaayyyy too broad of a statement. For example, the other day I went to the store and picked up a Long-spine urchin for my reef tank. Because this urchin is not only venomous, it is also able to poke a hole in the bag if not handled carefully. To reduce these risks, the LFS sent me home with a very large bag - probably two or three gallons. Granted, I do have a larger tank so that amount of water would probably have made a minimal impact on water chemistry, but what if my tank was only 30 gallons where the amount of LFS water might amount to about 10% of the entire water volume (extreme, I know....just trying to make a point.
You also have to keep in mind that the LFS water may contain more salt (yea, I am talking about FW here), major/minor trace elements, and/or DOC --- all of which can cause problems for our fishes' ability to cope with the laws of osmosis. All large, frequent, or rapid changes in water chemistry should be avoided as much as possible; to include those items that we do not always test for.
Highly unlikely? No offense but you aren't really thinking this through...
How easy is it for us to change the pH in our tanks on purpose? Very easy, right? I mean, people do this all of the time with chemicals, substrates, filter media, wood, some rocks, etc.....
What if your LFS is like mine in that they have several tanks 'daisy chained' together so that they all share the same water. What if something in one tank has changed the pH of the aquarium that held the fish you just bought?
What about those of us who might live in a suburb or rural area and gain water from a well, but are buying fish at an LFS in a city that provides treated water? In fact, how do you know your LFS's tap water is coming from the exact same source as yours if you are using well water?
....this is also not to mention the fact that pH differences are not the sole concern here and other variables can create huge differences in water quality.
I understand you math here, however the equation you are using can only be applied to chemicals such as ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, etc...etc...etc... pH is not a chemical so your mixing water together could have much different effects that you are thinking.
This is definitely blown out of the water anyways because many of us often use small amounts of RO water, mixed with tap water in order to achieve a specific pH, Kh, Gh and probably others. I can definitely do this in a small tank by adding as much RO water that would fit in a bag.
True, for those of us who use products/chemicals to buffer pH (myself not included), a water change can result in a pH change. However, this is not the case for the rest of us who simply allow the pH to remain as it naturally occurs; hence, adding a bunch of tap water isn't going to change pH.
However, a lot of people would argue that a pH change of 2 would be huge (think: ph of 8.0 falls to 6.0) and definitely be problematic for fish. Perhaps a change of .2 (point two) is what you are thinking here??? Anways....
While I certainly could be completely wrong about this, my brand of logic is telling me that 7 to 30 hours is a very large "window" and I would think that if it is possible to clone cells and such, it shouldn't be that hard to narrow that down quite a bit. Scientists definitely seem to have a firm grasp on the reproduction rates of Heterotrophic bacteria (also a beneficial bacteria under the right circumstances)
We also need to realize that these estimations are based upon the reproduction of nitrifying bacteria under ideal circumstances. One part of that idea situation is an increase in water temperature where as our fish may not be able to thrive. In fact, all but one of those resources you provided clearly include the term "optimal"
In any case, my point here is that saying a population of bacteria will double exactly in 24 hours in hindered by the fact that all of the needed ammonia is not instant. What this means is the beneficial bacteria are growing at a similar rate as ammonia production and so this is why it is commonly suggested to wait a week or more before adding any new fish.
So yea, I admit that I was wrong on that reproduction rate, but my point is still valid - we cannot add a bunch of fish today and expect that by this time tomorrow, all will be well. Besides, I am 100% sure that you have read/heard of people who struggle with ammonia and nitrites for much longer than a day.....sometimes even weeks or months. Now my argument has changed to say that we are both right. Additionally.....
I never meant to imply that ammonia or nitrite poisoning leads to sudden death (although some other chemicals might)....obviously I have read/heard/experienced fish who are suffering from the presence of these chemicals until I can fix that, or they die. However, I am only saying that it is very possible that the fish could die within 24 hours or less.
Again, I disagree and believe most people would agree with me when I say small amounts of ammonia and/or nitrite can cause damage to our fish:
Third paragraph within this article (ammonia)
First paragraph under sub-heading 'nitrite'
Click here to see some information that clearly states that adding too many fish at once can lead to ammonia problems (the first paragraph under the sub-heading Ammonia Poisoning)
I simply said that it is a bad idea to do in a display tank, but it might not matter if you add it to a quarantine tank. Obviously the main gist of having a quarantine tank is to keep issues/ailments out of a display tank AND this idea is based upon the principle that we need to separate fish because of potential problems that we cannot predict, nor see with the naked eye (I only know a few people who would buy a fish that is obviously sick)
Here is my problem.....even though I agree that your method may be less risky, it seemed to me that you were trying to say that because you do it, anyone can do it; quarantine tank or not. That is all I am trying to clarify here.
Honestly, this is definitely an exaggeration so let's look at Ich as an example...
Keep in mind that Ich is NOT always in an aquarium - it can only survive in water so it cannot find its way to your tank randomly and has to be introduced by us....generally in the form of adding fish, water, decor, plants, etc. that came from another tank with ich. You are also fooling yourself if you think the LFS tank has never held ich in the past or presently and hence, you could be bringing some home with you.
Don't be fooled by this optical illussion...even though you do not see any white spots on your fish, this doesn't mean ich isn't present because your fish have a strong ability to fight it off when it is healthy. Again, all of these precautions are built upon the foundation of our trying to avoid something that is largely unseen.
Also an exaggeration and is waaaayyyy too broad of a statement. For example, the other day I went to the store and picked up a Long-spine urchin for my reef tank. Because this urchin is not only venomous, it is also able to poke a hole in the bag if not handled carefully. To reduce these risks, the LFS sent me home with a very large bag - probably two or three gallons. Granted, I do have a larger tank so that amount of water would probably have made a minimal impact on water chemistry, but what if my tank was only 30 gallons where the amount of LFS water might amount to about 10% of the entire water volume (extreme, I know....just trying to make a point.
You also have to keep in mind that the LFS water may contain more salt (yea, I am talking about FW here), major/minor trace elements, and/or DOC --- all of which can cause problems for our fishes' ability to cope with the laws of osmosis. All large, frequent, or rapid changes in water chemistry should be avoided as much as possible; to include those items that we do not always test for.
Highly unlikely? No offense but you aren't really thinking this through...
How easy is it for us to change the pH in our tanks on purpose? Very easy, right? I mean, people do this all of the time with chemicals, substrates, filter media, wood, some rocks, etc.....
What if your LFS is like mine in that they have several tanks 'daisy chained' together so that they all share the same water. What if something in one tank has changed the pH of the aquarium that held the fish you just bought?
What about those of us who might live in a suburb or rural area and gain water from a well, but are buying fish at an LFS in a city that provides treated water? In fact, how do you know your LFS's tap water is coming from the exact same source as yours if you are using well water?
....this is also not to mention the fact that pH differences are not the sole concern here and other variables can create huge differences in water quality.
I understand you math here, however the equation you are using can only be applied to chemicals such as ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, etc...etc...etc... pH is not a chemical so your mixing water together could have much different effects that you are thinking.
This is definitely blown out of the water anyways because many of us often use small amounts of RO water, mixed with tap water in order to achieve a specific pH, Kh, Gh and probably others. I can definitely do this in a small tank by adding as much RO water that would fit in a bag.
True, for those of us who use products/chemicals to buffer pH (myself not included), a water change can result in a pH change. However, this is not the case for the rest of us who simply allow the pH to remain as it naturally occurs; hence, adding a bunch of tap water isn't going to change pH.
However, a lot of people would argue that a pH change of 2 would be huge (think: ph of 8.0 falls to 6.0) and definitely be problematic for fish. Perhaps a change of .2 (point two) is what you are thinking here??? Anways....
