New To This Forum And Need Advice - Fish Died

[katalyce]

I wasn't sure which section to put this in so my apologies if this is the wrong one. It's not exactly an emergency since most of the fish have died already.

I have been keeping fish on and off for seven years. Currently I have a 20 Gallon with an on the back carbon filter and a powerhead attached to a undergravel filter. I also have a couple of airstones. I have had it up and running for almost a year now.

Last Sunday I added 2 catfish and 2 platys to my 20 gallon aquarium. I already had 1 gold gourami and 3 platys. I thought I had done my math right as far as how many inches of fish I could have, but maybe I figured a bit high? But now I also realize I should have just got the catfish and gone back for the platys another day. Anyways. Everyone was fine and happy. Eating, swimming, not looking stressed at all (even the four new fish). Friday, I go to feed them. One catfish and the gourami were dead. I fished them out and threw them away. Saturday I went to feed them and found another Platy dead on the bottom and one of the platys was MIA. None of them have any funny marks or are lethargic or anything...I am now down to 2 Platys (one from before and one I bought last week) and 1 catfish. I have found and removed all the dead bodies. I did 50% water changes on Saturday and Sunday after reading some similar situations on another fish forum.

I didn't have a water test kit before this, but I have one now. When I tested today the results were as follows:
Ph - 7.2ish
Ammonia - 0
NO2 (I am not sure if this is Nitrite or Nitrate?) - between 0 and .05

I usually use dechlorinated tap water which I run until it gets to the right temp. My tank is about 78/80 F

The platys seem fine. The catfish is kind of spastic and darting around every so often, but that's how I have always seen catfish act so I hesitate to say he seems uncomfortable or ill. The Older Platy is a bit on the chubby side, but he doesn't look like he has Dropsy. The poop is brown that I have seen.

I now know (from talking to fishy people on another forum) how to filter out the pet store water when adding new fish so I will do that next time.

Anything else I should do or check to be sure the aquarium is safe for new fish?
How long I should wait to get more fish? I was planning on getting 2 more platys and maybe a Gourami.

 

[rdd1952]

First, hello and welcome to the forum.

I don't think your problem is related to adding too many fish at once. It sounds as if you basically doubled the fish load so the bacteria should have doubled in about 24 hours to cover the additional waste. Even if ammonia and nitrite (NO2) had been the problem, it would have taken a period of time longer than a week to kill them unless the levels were extremely high and in that case, it should have killed them all. The fact that you have a slight nitrite reading does indicate that all the waste isn't being completely processed though.

It would almost seem that you got something in the tank that caused the problem since it wasn't just the new fish that died. If it had only been the new ones, I would have said it was something with the way they were handled (pet store employees seem to be terrible at netting fish) but wouldn't venture a guess as to what it could have been. I would wait a week or so before adding any more new fish. Test the water daily and make sure the nitrite (and ammonia) is back to zero before getting more.

As for the water from the fish store, I have never filtered it out. I just let the fish swim out of the bag and the water goes into the tank. I've never had a problem with it but I do quarantine all my new fish before adding them to the main tank.

 

[Tommy Gun]

I don't think your problem is related to adding too many fish at once. It sounds as if you basically doubled the fish load so the bacteria should have doubled in about 24 hours to cover the additional waste.

Sorry rdd1952, I do not agree with this since it would depend on how much ammonia production is occuring and adding fish alone isn't going to double the ammonia instantly. With that in mind there is also a good chance that there will be an ammonia spike and nitrite spike before the bacteria population can increase - there can only be enough bacteria as there is food available to them.

Even if ammonia and nitrite (NO2) had been the problem, it would have taken a period of time longer than a week to kill them unless the levels were extremely high and in that case, it should have killed them all

I also disagree here as well.....it does not take a lot of nitrite to kill a fish, nor ammonia and obviously some fish are more tolerant of these chemicals than other (e.g. why some fish are seperated from others by being referred to as "hardy". Also....

It would almost seem that you got something in the tank that caused the problem since it wasn't just the new fish that died.

Any and all fish in a tank will suffer from water chemistry issues - regardless of how long they have been in the tank.

As for the water from the fish store, I have never filtered it out. I just let the fish swim out of the bag and the water goes into the tank. I've never had a problem with it but I do quarantine all my new fish before adding them to the main tank.

While it may not be as bad to do in a quarantine tank, we should never add the LFS water to our aquarium because it could not only carry things you want to avoid, but if the bag is large enough and/or the tank is small enough, could cause a sudden change in water chemistry; contributing to osmotic shock. This is probably even more possible if your LFS has added any chemicals or products to help your fish deal with the ride home (mine uses a little blue pill).

Test the water daily and make sure the nitrite (and ammonia) is back to zero before getting more.

In the meantime, you might want to think about adding a small amount of salt to your tank --- this will help your fish deal with the nitrites a a little better. You also want to make sure that there is enough dissolved oxygen in the water becuase nitrites are harmful due to their ability to combine with your fishes' blood and restrict the amount of oxygen it can carry. If you can add more O2 to the water, then the fish have an easier time of transporting it throughout their bodies.

Make sure that the pH is not changing rapidly or often too.

 

[Tacklebury]

This is probably even more possible if your LFS has added any chemicals or products to help your fish deal with the ride home (mine uses a little blue pill)

Does the pill get it home or get it up!!!!

 

[Tommy Gun]

Does the pill get it home or get it up!!!!

And you say some people like to make others look stupid? You are doing a fine job on your own. Grow up.

 

[katalyce]

Sorry rdd1952, I do not agree with this since it would depend on how much ammonia production is occuring and adding fish alone isn't going to double the ammonia instantly. With that in mind there is also a good chance that there will be an ammonia spike and nitrite spike before the bacteria population can increase - there can only be enough bacteria as there is food available to them.
....
While it may not be as bad to do in a quarantine tank, we should never add the LFS water to our aquarium because it could not only carry things you want to avoid, but if the bag is large enough and/or the tank is small enough, could cause a sudden change in water chemistry; contributing to osmotic shock. This is probably even more possible if your LFS has added any chemicals or products to help your fish deal with the ride home (mine uses a little blue pill).

Ok that was basically what I had figured happened. I used to when I added fish, float the bag for like 10 miuntes. Open it and add some water from the tank. Float for another ten minutes. add a little more water. Let it set a few more minutes then dump it in. I don't have room for a quarantiene tank really.

I just wanted to add. the No2 test was closest in color to the "0" reading, but like maybe a tiny bit of a shade towards the next one which would be ".05" I added a peice of bamboo (from the LFS) yesterday and my friend from another forum is sending me some moss to add to try to help buffer the nitrates and stuff.

In the meantime, you might want to think about adding a small amount of salt to your tank --- this will help your fish deal with the nitrites a a little better. You also want to make sure that there is enough dissolved oxygen in the water becuase nitrites are harmful due to their ability to combine with your fishes' blood and restrict the amount of oxygen it can carry. If you can add more O2 to the water, then the fish have an easier time of transporting it throughout their bodies.

Make sure that the pH is not changing rapidly or often too.

YOu mean get another airstone? I know they only help by causing agitation on the surface. I have a lot of "flow" in my aquarium despite everything being on the lowest settings. Will the plants I am getting help O2 levels? How much salt? is table salt OK?

I read in the other thread to check PH every week or so. Or should I be doing it more since I had a problem?


*ETA* and thank you to those of you who replied with advice.

 

[gems2209]

hello

right the salt you need is from your lfs its aquarium salt, BUT i dont think you can use salt with catfish i might be wrong but just make sure you check, you dont want to lose the only one you got left.

 

[katalyce]

Ok thanks, Gem.

I retested the Ph and NO2 today and it came out as Ph: 7.4 and NO2: 0. I think Maybe I read the NO2 a little off the other day. Today I took it too the window and looked at it there instead of under my yellow kitchen light.

I think I will retest everything in a couple days and provided no one else dies between now and then, I am going to get 2 more platys and slowly work the tank back up to being close to full.

Thanks so much for the advice.

 

[rdd1952]

I don't think your problem is related to adding too many fish at once. It sounds as if you basically doubled the fish load so the bacteria should have doubled in about 24 hours to cover the additional waste.

Sorry rdd1952, I do not agree with this since it would depend on how much ammonia production is occuring and adding fish alone isn't going to double the ammonia instantly. With that in mind there is also a good chance that there will be an ammonia spike and nitrite spike before the bacteria population can increase - there can only be enough bacteria as there is food available to them.

Even if ammonia and nitrite (NO2) had been the problem, it would have taken a period of time longer than a week to kill them unless the levels were extremely high and in that case, it should have killed them all

I also disagree here as well.....it does not take a lot of nitrite to kill a fish, nor ammonia and obviously some fish are more tolerant of these chemicals than other (e.g. why some fish are seperated from others by being referred to as "hardy". Also....

It's true that the waste may not double immediately and thus the bacteria won't necessarily double in 24 hours but that makes the likelyhood that there was a major ammonia or nitrite spike even less. At the very least, the bacteria will double in 24 hours if there is enough food so even if the fish came in and did start producing waste immediately, the bacteria would be able to handle it in a day, two days max. If they didn't begin producing much waste from the start, then, the bacteria would have even less trouble multiplying to handle the increased load. As for the nitrite or ammonia required to kill a fish, unless there is a super huge spike, ammonia and/or nitrite poisoning is going to take time, especially nitrite poisoning. They are not swift. Look at all the posts where newbies are seeing ammonia and nitrite readings that are off the chart and the fish are still alive. I still stand by my statements that the deaths were not a result of increased toxins from the addition of too many fish.

It would almost seem that you got something in the tank that caused the problem since it wasn't just the new fish that died.

Any and all fish in a tank will suffer from water chemistry issues - regardless of how long they have been in the tank.

My point here is that the deaths were not a result of the new fish being diseased and/or injured, not that there was a water quality issue.

As for the water from the fish store, I have never filtered it out. I just let the fish swim out of the bag and the water goes into the tank. I've never had a problem with it but I do quarantine all my new fish before adding them to the main tank.

While it may not be as bad to do in a quarantine tank, we should never add the LFS water to our aquarium because it could not only carry things you want to avoid, but if the bag is large enough and/or the tank is small enough, could cause a sudden change in water chemistry; contributing to osmotic shock. This is probably even more possible if your LFS has added any chemicals or products to help your fish deal with the ride home (mine uses a little blue pill).

As I said, I have always added the LFS water to my tank. I think it is much less stressful than netting the fish over a bucket in order to not put the water in there. I suspect that if a poll were conducted of our membership, that most people add the water. As far as the amount of water in the bag, I have mever see a bag larger with much more than maybe a quart (most are less than a pint) and even as much as 1/2 gallon of water in a even a 10 gallon tank won't change the pH/KH/GH of the tank enough to matter. That is only 5% so even if the pH of the tank were 8 and the pH of the bag was 6, the resulting change would only be .1 to 7.9, hardly an issue to the fish.

In the meantime, you might want to think about adding a small amount of salt to your tank --- this will help your fish deal with the nitrites a a little better

I would not add salt to a tank with scaleless fish like catfish (I assume these are corys) in it.

Ok that was basically what I had figured happened. I used to when I added fish, float the bag for like 10 miuntes. Open it and add some water from the tank. Float for another ten minutes. add a little more water. Let it set a few more minutes then dump it in. I don't have room for a quarantiene tank really.

This is how I have always added my fish. There was a very interesting thread a few months ago about how people acclimated their fish (floating vs just plopping them in) and it seems that both work fine as long as there isn't a huge difference in the pH of the tank versus the bag water which sometimes happens.

 

[katalyce]

As I said, I have always added the LFS water to my tank. I think it is much less stressful than netting the fish over a bucket in order to not put the water in there. I suspect that if a poll were conducted of our membership, that most people add the water. As far as the amount of water in the bag, I have mever see a bag larger with much more than maybe a quart (most are less than a pint) and even as much as 1/2 gallon of water in a even a 10 gallon tank won't change the pH/KH/GH of the tank enough to matter. That is only 5% so even if the pH of the tank were 8 and the pH of the bag was 6, the resulting change would only be .1 to 7.9, hardly an issue to the fish.

In the meantime, you might want to think about adding a small amount of salt to your tank --- this will help your fish deal with the nitrites a a little better

I would not add salt to a tank with scaleless fish like catfish (I assume these are corys) in it.

Ok that was basically what I had figured happened. I used to when I added fish, float the bag for like 10 miuntes. Open it and add some water from the tank. Float for another ten minutes. add a little more water. Let it set a few more minutes then dump it in. I don't have room for a quarantiene tank really.

This is how I have always added my fish. There was a very interesting thread a few months ago about how people acclimated their fish (floating vs just plopping them in) and it seems that both work fine as long as there isn't a huge difference in the pH of the tank versus the bag water which sometimes happens.

The way someone in the other forum suggested to add the fish was use a bowl and add tank water to the LFS water with the fish. Let it set for a while than do a 50% change adding in tank water. Let it set a while and then catch the fish in the bowl and put them in the tank. (The person who reccommended this method is a betta breeder)

Yes. The catfish is a "cory cat." So I will skip the salt. The Older Platy who looked chubby before looks thinner today so maybe she was starting to get dropsy or she was constipated? She had a big green poop today. I tried feeding them some cucumber yesterday. I didn't see them eat it but half of it is gone. Is there a limit to how long I should leave the cucumber in there?

If you do think it was something bacterial, then how do I know it is gone? When will it be safe to add more fish? Is there anything I should do to sanitize the tank or anything?

I know so many questions. I did get some very helpful information from some of the emergency threads, but I am not entirely sure how to apply it to my situation. Thanks so much everyone for helping me!

 

[rdd1952]

I don't know that it was necessarily bacterial or any other type disease as much as it may have been a contaminant. The only way to be sure the tank is free of bacteria is to treat it but as long as the fish you have left settle in and are ok, you may not have to worry. Having said that, some bacteria I believe can go into a dormant stage and then reemerge when there is stress (such as elevated levels of ammonia) so you could still have a problem later down the line. I defintely don't know much about diseases and infections though.

As far as how to put fish in the tank, I stated earlier that I though the majority of members probably just added the bag water to the tank. While that is what I do and I have never had a problem (bought from 8 different fish stores), based on the thread I started in Chit Chat, it is running about 3 to 2 of people that don't add the water versus those who do. Most seem to think it is a risk to add it while I think the stress and potential problems of netting are just as bad. No one seems to have a specific situation they have encountered as a direct result of the LFS water though.

I wouldn't leave the cucumber in for too long as it will start to decay and break down.

 

[Tommy Gun]

At the very least, the bacteria will double in 24 hours if there is enough food so even if the fish came in and did start producing waste immediately, the bacteria would be able to handle it in a day, two days max

The only reason that I have not directly said that I do not agree with this is because I haven't found the numbers to back it up....but I know that nitrifying bacteria is actually rather slow to reproduce - but the confusion may be caused because some may refer to heterotrophic bacteria which can reproduce very quickly and can, in large enough numbers, oxidize ammonia into nitrite (or nitrite to nitrate, I can't remember right now). The 'usual' suggestion is to wait at least a week between each new addition of fish and add them in small numbers.

As for the nitrite or ammonia required to kill a fish, unless there is a super huge spike, ammonia and/or nitrite poisoning is going to take time, especially nitrite poisoning.

Can you back this up? Everything I have ever read/heard states that ammonia and nitrite can cause very sudden death - nitrite especially. It does not take long for the effects to set in, death can result within hours, and if saved, injuries to the fish from ammonia or nitrite poisoning can be irreversible.

Look at all the posts where newbies are seeing ammonia and nitrite readings that are off the chart and the fish are still alive.

Look at the number of "newbies" that turn to forums because they cannot keep fish alive....

I still stand by my statements that the deaths were not a result of increased toxins from the addition of too many fish.

I stand by my statements regarding the idea that the deaths may not be a result of increased toxins, but certainly could be. I also stand by the fact that some fish are more hardy than others and hence, may not die as quickly as others when exposed to the exact same level of toxins.

I don't understand why you want to close doors on possibilities before they are completely explored. If there are nitrites present in an aquarium, then this needs to be addressed in some fashion - not ignored because some 'newbies' can get away with it.

As I said, I have always added the LFS water to my tank.

...to a quarantine tank; or so you say. Why suggest doing this for a display tank then? There is no way that you can honestly make an informed statement that says doing so is not without risk.

I retested the Ph and NO2 today and it came out as Ph: 7.4 and NO2: 0.

Keep testing that pH level very often to make sure that it is not changing much more than it already has. If you have a Kh and Gh test, those would be good to monitor as well.

BUT i don't think you can use salt with catfish i might be wrong but just make sure you check, you don't want to lose the only one you got left.

You can use salt in a fish with scaleless fish....just be sure to dissolve the salt in a cup full of tank water before adding it very slowly to the tank (over the course of two or three hours) so your fish can adjust their osmotic regulation process(es).

This is how I have always added my fish. There was a very interesting thread a few months ago about how people acclimated their fish (floating vs just plopping them in) and it seems that both work fine as long as there isn't a huge difference in the pH of the tank versus the bag water which sometimes happens.

How do you know there isn't a difference in pH? (IME and IMHO, this can EASILY happen) How do you know there isn't a difference in hardness? How do you know there isn't a difference in DOC? How do you know the water is the same between two tanks in your same house? Never assume...especially when it is so easy to take precautions. Netting the fish for one last time out of a bag isn't going to be the nail in the coffin of a fish which has already been chased, netted, placed in a bag, transported home, and acclimated to a new tank.

I definitely don't know much about diseases and infections though.

I do....if there is no outward signs of a disease and/or illness, I feel that it is NOT safe to assume that there is a reason to use preventative medication on your tank. Keep in mind that the use of antibiotics may result in the death of your beneficial bacteria. If anything, medications can be as, if not more stressful on your fish than transporting them home and even if they are not acclimated to differing water chemistry. (osmotic shock...it is a real concern)

Having said that, some bacteria I believe can go into a dormant stage and then reemerge when there is stress (such as elevated levels of ammonia)

Perhaps, but parasites can definitely find an open window to host upon a fish when it is stressed....which is one reason why adding the LFS water to your tank is risky.

I honestly don't know why anyone would want to take a risk with his or her livestock and if it seems as though some people are just paranoid, I can all but guarantee that his/her attention to detail pays some large dividends. Obviously we can always say "what if" or "it might not happen" all day, but in the end, the only way to be safe is to be careful and methodical.

IMHO, your fish may have died from quite a few things and you may never be able to determine the exact cause from the resources available to you at this moment. However, you do know that there may be some nitrites in your water which can cause problems for your fish to breathe so this should be addressed. The fact that there are nitrites also suggests that your tank is not completely cycled and adding more fish now might end in the same experience repeating itself. My suggestion is to continue monitoring your tank, without adding more fish for a week or so and then add one or two fish at a time using some of the very commonly suggested precautions you have been given here (versus the anecdotal suggestions) if for no other reason than to rule out an array of causes if your endure the same deaths later.

 

[katalyce]

Thank you guys for the in depth and informative replies!

For some reason when I was in the LFS (a Petco was the one I went to since it was the closest, but there are a few others I may check out next time) I didn't see any hardness tests. I ended up buying a mini master test kit which had low Ph, High Ph, ammonia and Nitrite (NO2).

Personally, if I had it to do over I would: 1. buy only 2 catfish 2. net the fish into the tank and 3. not float the bags. I do think it is entirely possible the bags were set on something in my car or on the counter at the store which may have contaminated the tank. Or that the fish were sick and the illness killed mine. Either way, I will be waiting at least a week or two before getting more fish.

More importantly, my fish now seem healthier than they were a few days ago before I took the time to read all this stuff. I just wish I had read it before Fred (my gourami) and his "little dwarves" (the platys) died. I always thought of fishkeeping as simple. lol.

 

[Tommy Gun]

Personally, if I had it to do over I would: 1. buy only 2 catfish 2. net the fish into the tank and 3. not float the bags. I do think it is entirely possible the bags were set on something in my car or on the counter at the store which may have contaminated the tank. Or that the fish were sick and the illness killed mine. Either way, I will be waiting at least a week or two before getting more fish.

I think a lot of the cories are actually better off in small groups of three to five or so....but I am not sure right now.

The only reason you want to float the bag is to match the water temperatures. I do this all of the time and then add water directly to the bag, after which I net the fish to get them in my tank. I do this with all fish, saltwater or freshwater. If you have to, ask your LFS to double bag the fish so you can remove one before you place it in your tank.

 

[rdd1952]

Tommy, the points are getting too numerous to quote but I do want to touch on a few again. First, it is pretty well noted that nitrifying bacteria double in about 24 hours (have read from 7 to 30 with 24 being the general consensus). Below are several web pages that state that fact.

Near the bottom of the "What are nitrifying bacteria" paragraph

In 8th paragraph

3rd paragraph of "Nitrifying Bacteria Facts"

9th bullet point under Nitrifying Bacteria (Nitrospira)

As for the length of time required for ammonia or nitrite to kill a fish, no I do not have any data to back up what I said but from a simple Google search, I found articles that mention ammonia or nitrite poisoning but none ever mentioned it being sudden. They usually mention the symptoms and the progression from one to the other. I agree that they can kill quickly but my understanding is that it requires high levels unless you are dealing with very sensitive fish. As a general rule it takes time thus the newbies that come here looking for help. They have already started losing fish because their ammonia is high and has been that way for a while but their fish didn't die all of a sudden. And I totally agree that some fish are hardier than others and more susceptible to poisoning (or any other problems for that matter) than others. If you do have data that details the fact that ammonia and nitrite poisoning are sudden, I would love to see it.

As for the risk of adding the tank water to your tank, I never said there was no risk. I simply said that I did it and I don't worry about a problem, especially since I quarantine my fish first. From the poll I started, it looks as if it is about 60-40 for those that don't add the water which is not what I expected. I thought it would be the other way around. I simply believe that the chance of introducing a problem into the tank specifically through the water, totally unrelated to the fish, is very small. It can happen but if people aren't quarantining their fish first, the water itself should be the least of their worries. They are much more apt to get their tank wiped out by an outbreak of ich or some other disease that the fish bring in than they are of having a problem related to the water. I hope you would agree with that.

The likelyhood of a change in pH, GH or KH of any significance as a result of the bag water is absolutely minimal. The quantity of water you are talking about is just too small. As I mentioned in the earlier post, even if the bag contained a half gallon of water, that would only be 2.5 percent in 20 gallon of water. Even if the pH was a full 2 points difference from the tank water to the bag water (highly unlikely) that would only result in a pH of 8.0 being lowered to 7.95, hardly a change you would be able to read with your average test kit. To change the pH as much as 1 full tenth (8.0 to 7.9) in 20 gallons, you would need to add a full gallon of water with a pH difference of 2 full points. Even that would not be a change that the vast majority of our fish would notice. You are much more likely to see that kind of change during a simple water change than you are with bag water from the fish store. The same applies to Gh and KH.

Just as a test, I just measured a bag that I had from the LFS when I bought my last fish, 10 neons, and filled to about the level it was filled from the store and it held 1 pt/16 oz. So adding that much water to a 20 gallon tank would only result in a change of .00625% to the water parameters. Even in a 5 gallon tank, it would only be 2.5% as in the previous paragraph.

As for how I know there isn't a big difference in the bag water and tank water when I buy new fish and am getting ready to acclimate them, I test. It's that simple. I test the tank water and then the bag water. If there is a significant difference, I spend more time floating the bag and adding small amounts of tank water. The drip method works well for this. I have had to do this once when i bought my angel fish and the water from the LFS was 6.0 (most likely below 6) while my tank was 7.0. I spent 3 hours acclimating them. I have now had them for almost 3 years. If, on the other hand, the pH is basically the same, I simply float for 15 mintues to adjust the temperature and put them in.

As a whole, pH is, IMO, the most over-feared thing in fishkeeping. Don't get me wrong, it is important to know and a sudden crash can be deadly, but as long as it is stable, it really doesn't matter if it's 6.5, 7.0 or 7.5 for most fish. They will adapt to it as long as it is stable and not all over the place as is the case when people use the pH adjusting chemicals. There are exceptions to the rule such as African cichlids, discus, etc., but for most community fish the actual number isn't important. I couldn't tell you what the pH was on either of my tanks as I haven't tested it in ages but could pretty much guess that the 75 gallon is around 7 and the 29 gallon is in the mid 6s.

We have gotten way off the original topic. As you mentioned, she probably won't figure out what caused the deaths. Sometimes things happen and we never figure out what caused it. It has happened to me before. And I also agree with you that treating with medications can carry risks too but (and I'm asking this because I don't know) what do you do in a situation where there could still be bacteria (or parasites or whatever may have caused the deaths) present in the tank? Obviously, you don't want to add more new fish and end up with the same results. Is there any way of knowing for sure that the tank is disease free and safe to add more fish to?