New Tank Setup ( Need Help )

[Jeff Lange]

Hello everyone. I have set up a new tank and am going through the fishless cycling. I am not sure I purchased a big enough pump so I wanted to ask everyones opinion.
My tank is a 65 Gallon Freshwater. 3 feet long, 18" wide, and 2 feet high.
I purchase a Magnum 350 from my local fish store as this was recommended over the Emporer 400 as the Marineland Magnum 350 is what they use on all there tanks. My Magnum did not come with the extra bio wheel setup, as they said I did not need it and that the 350 would be enough of a pump for my tank. The box says up to 100 gallons.
Any feedback would be appriciated. I may be adding some live plants to this tank with my fish instead of artificial plants so I wanted all the help and advice I could get as I am a complete noobie in the Tropical Fish Hobby. I was also considering an air stone thinking this would incease the oxygen.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

hi there, the first thing you need to research is how to prepare the filter before adding fish, this is called fishless cycling. there's pinned topics in the new to the hobby section giving you all the info you need. that's as good a place as any to start!

 

[waterdrop]

hi Jeff, (good morning Miss Wiggle!),

This is a somewhat unusual choice of filter. You may want to seek some advice over in the Hardware and DIY section. I'm not really familiar with this filter but some of the info I've seen seems to indicate that it is designed for salt water aquariums and is usually used just for mechanical filtration (and optionally chemical.) That is a concern.

By far the most important aspect of filter setup for a freshwater tank like yours is the bio-filter. That is what all the fuss is about cycling. Its the thing we all work so hard on the first few weeks or months prior to having live fish when we do the fishless cycling process. I saw several references to people using separate cannister filters for the bio function and using the Marineland Magnum 350 just for "polishing" the water with polyfloss.

I think you're going to need to sort this hardware situation out as a separate project simultaneous with reading intensively about fishless cycling and the process of the nitrogen cycle in general so as to be sure to understand the background of whats going on with filters.

Others may know better about this equip,
~~waterdrop~~

 

[Jeff Lange]

Yes, I have already started the Fishless cycling process and so far it is going ok. Got my first Nitrite reading yesterday.
As for the Magnum 350 canister filter, this is what the supposed pro's at the fish store recommended over the emporor 400
My current 28 gallon has a penguin 200 on it currently. The FS said that the Magnum 350 would be a much better choice for my 65 gallon tank as I was ready to purchase the emporer 400 when they recommended this instead.

 

[ox5477]

I ahve heard mixed opinions about the emperor but I believe by no means is it a bad filter. If a filter pulls water in, circulates it around and through your media and then returns water to the tank, then it can't be called bad. It may be less efficient than others but it still does the job.

For the future too... when looking at a filters flow rate, don't trust the manufacturers "recommended tank size." This is a good estimate usually but the best thing is to look at the gph or lph that the filter can flow. you want atleast 4x turnover (normal community), up to 6x to 8x turnover for overly messy fish. Also, if you are using a canister that will sit on the floor, you have to take into account for head height. A canister that says it will flow 300gph means that it will flow this when the filter is at tank height and with no filter media. Add media and a 3 or 4 ft head height, and you usually take 15 to 20% off that number. a good example is the fulval FX5 I got for my 125. It quotes that it flows roughly 650gph. But, at the 4.5" head and with the 10G space filled with filter foam and carbon, I think the filter is lucky to push out 400 if that.

Good to hear your doing fishless cycling, always a preponent of this

 

[waterdrop]

Interesting.. hey ox, I have a followup question: When you say you felt your FX5 only got 400 rather than 650, was that just a guesstimate or is there actually some way to measure pump flow. I mean, I guess one could actually put an empty bucket up at tank height and measure how much it pumps in for some given period of time but that sounds like a real mess to fuss with so I was wondering if there is some easier way? Can't think of any myself.

Jeff,will your Magnum have some sort of bio-media to anchor the bacteria? Common types of media for this are ceramic rings, ceramic pebbles or small-pore sponges. Larger pore sponges and polyfloss are generally for mechanical filtration (debris removal) so those could maybe be ruled out as main bio-filter media.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Jeff Lange]

Interesting.. hey ox, I have a followup question: When you say you felt your FX5 only got 400 rather than 650, was that just a guesstimate or is there actually some way to measure pump flow. I mean, I guess one could actually put an empty bucket up at tank height and measure how much it pumps in for some given period of time but that sounds like a real mess to fuss with so I was wondering if there is some easier way? Can't think of any myself.

Jeff,will your Magnum have some sort of bio-media to anchor the bacteria? Common types of media for this are ceramic rings, ceramic pebbles or small-pore sponges. Larger pore sponges and polyfloss are generally for mechanical filtration (debris removal) so those could maybe be ruled out as main bio-filter media.

~~waterdrop~~

Well Waterdrop, I already started the fishless cycle. The Fish Store keeps telling me there is no proven facts that the bio wheels will help.
I am actually thinking of adding an additional penguin 200 or 350 or an emperor 400 power filter w/ bio wheel in addition to the magnum 350.
Do you think this is a good idea? Dont want to go overboard? I am planning on hooking it up independent of the Magnum so I don't want to get too much current in my 65 gallon. If I add the emporer now will I stall my cycle process ? Currently using the polishing filter in the Magnum as this is what they recomended to use when I set it up.

Thanks for all your help, it is greatly appriciated.

 

[rabbut]

IMO you can't over-do filtration, short of having a current so strong that fish can't swim against it.

I am not formiliar with either of the filters that you mention, but adding additional filters will not stall the cycle. Just make sure you don't remove all the media from the existing one, or you will then have problems.

HTH
Rabbut

 

[waterdrop]

Interesting.. hey ox, I have a followup question: When you say you felt your FX5 only got 400 rather than 650, was that just a guesstimate or is there actually some way to measure pump flow. I mean, I guess one could actually put an empty bucket up at tank height and measure how much it pumps in for some given period of time but that sounds like a real mess to fuss with so I was wondering if there is some easier way? Can't think of any myself.

Jeff,will your Magnum have some sort of bio-media to anchor the bacteria? Common types of media for this are ceramic rings, ceramic pebbles or small-pore sponges. Larger pore sponges and polyfloss are generally for mechanical filtration (debris removal) so those could maybe be ruled out as main bio-filter media.

~~waterdrop~~

Well Waterdrop, I already started the fishless cycle. The Fish Store keeps telling me there is no proven facts that the bio wheels will help.
I am actually thinking of adding an additional penguin 200 or 350 or an emperor 400 power filter w/ bio wheel in addition to the magnum 350.
Do you think this is a good idea? Dont want to go overboard? I am planning on hooking it up independent of the Magnum so I don't want to get too much current in my 65 gallon. If I add the emporer now will I stall my cycle process ? Currently using the polishing filter in the Magnum as this is what they recomended to use when I set it up.

Thanks for all your help, it is greatly appriciated.

Hi Jeff, I have seen the various Marineland HOB filters with the biowheels and in general I think HOB filters can be very good (any filter, internal, HOB or cannister can be good if the flow rate works, the media materials are good, there is enough capacity to handle the job and they are well maintained I think.) I am not such a good one to comment in detail on the combo of filters you are asking about as I just don't know them or their capacity well enough. There may be others here or in the hardware section who could make better comments.

Although all sorts of filters are well-represented here, I find in my reading that there are many positive comments about cannister filters for larger tanks. A significant feature of these is a larger volume of media, thus a larger area for bacteria to populate and larger mechanical filtration to allow longer waits between cleanings. The act of cleaning is made somewhat easier by the common ability to shut off the hoses at the filter head, unclip them and then just carry the filter box to a wash tub where the media trays can be lifted out and lightly rinsed in a bucket of tank water. Among cannisters, Eheim, Tetratec (I think?), Fluval, Rena are names commonly seen.

Its possible the magnum 350 would be an excellent mechanical filter and you could go with a small second filter, whether cannister or HOB, that is loaded with more bio-media, fronted by minimal sponge material to reduce clogging. One question I might ask myself is whether the devices that come pre-loaded with media or even the biowheel itself are proprietary devices that sort of lock you into buying refill material from the same vendor. HOBs can do this to you. Cannisters often allow more flexibility in choosing filtration media to fill the baskets. I know this may seem esoteric now but aquarists get very familiar with the pros/cons of different media pretty quickly and usually care about it.

Anyway I don't have a wide enough experience to be the best help and I urge you to give it a shot over in the Hardware section, besides keeping an eye out for more responders here!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Jeff Lange]

Thanks Waterdrop.
I met with the owners son today regarding the addition of a 2ed hang on filter such as the emperor 400 or just a Penguin 200 and they told me that it really was not needed. They had me change out the Micron Cartridge and set up the carbon media filter ( Chemical Filtration) that also came with the Magnum 350 canister filter. They told me bacteria will accumulate in my gravel as well as the carbon media in the canister. So for now I will hold off on the additional bio-wheel. After all, one if the main reasons I went with a canister filter was to put it out of site below the tank in the aquarium stand.
Thanks again for all your help and advice it is greatly appriciated

 

[OldMan47]

The micron filter is truly a polishing filter. Indeed you want to use other media in the filter. Carbon is not the best biofilter medium but it will work. I suspect, but I don't own that model, that you can buy any number of different filter media from Marineland. The 350 was their primary canister filter until they came out with the C series of stainless steel canisters last year so I am sure they make media for it. A canister with biomedia and maybe a mechanical filter should be all you really need for your tank. If you are excited about the noise, you could add an emperor 400 but the emperor series make a lot more noise than a canister because of the splashing water.