New Setup

[theshadowinc]

Well as stated a 40gal setup looking at one of 2 setups here, Gourmis Community or African if I can even do African setup in this tank
Looking for a place where I can get all the research needed think this would be the best Spot Looking at an African Setup,
Is there any such thing as Dwarf African fish?? What is water Quality needed?? What is Temp???
Basically I am new to African I know Nothing and Will stay that way till I read some replies, my wife is interested and
I just think that 40gal is a little to small for a African setup. Any Suggestions would Be apreciated
My Definition of Dwarf African would be one that is Adult size of 3-5" is there even such a thing???
I have heard they need to be overstocked basically to even out aggression true???
I have a funny feeling someone is going to come along and say 55gal min needed for african
Really I would be interested in the Smaller African ones what I would call Dwarf example Like a Dwarf Gourmis
What does Filtration for them need to be in x the tank size?
Also looking for the colourful ones not the ugly ones sorry kinda rude to put it that way but some are just nasty looking
something like Electric Blue and How i tell the difference between Hybrid and Pure strain?
Also the type of food, will they Eat beef heart?? Beef replaced with Shrimp maybe??

Okay I think there is enough information where someone can ideally help me
Besides only way to really learn is through others mistakes in life

These would be the Questions I would want Answered
If a African setup in a 40gal is no Why not?
Can't Feed beef heart why not?
Guess you see where it goes maybe enough posts from members will help me decide on what to do
this setup is also for my Wife but for a 6 year old Daughter would it be advisable for them as in easy wise
but also remember answering a question like that she helps daddy raise discus

thanks for your time in reading and replying
theshadowinc

 

[Redrum]

you can get dwarf ciclids just google lake tanganyika cichlids and then look for the dwarf species such as the shell dwellers and julies you can put a few of them in a 20-30 gallon so i would imagine you can put a bit in a 40g. there are also dwarf mbuna species such as demansoni they get average 2.5 inch max of 4 in.

 

[dthoffsett]

Other than Lake Tanganikya species, Pseudotropheus demasoni would be the only Lake Malawi species suitable to your tank. To answer most of your questions I'd suggest reading this:
http/www.fishforum...a-requirements/

There are some African riverine species that would also work in your tank such as kribensis. Though if you are looking for really colorful cichlids you might check out the various Apistogramma species (New Worlds).

For some of your other questions:

something like Electric Blue and How i tell the difference between Hybrid and Pure strain?
Research will give you a good idea if your fish conform to the breed specifics however, unless they are wild caught or your supplier knows the lineage of the fish you will never know for certain. Avoiding Mixed African Tanks is a start as most of these are hybrids.

Also the type of food, will they Eat beef heart?? Beef replaced with Shrimp maybe??
Their dietary requirements depend on the species, almost all mbuna are herbivores so meaty proteins should not be given, most of the peacocks and haps and carnivores or omnivores though there are some herbivorous haps.

 

[mjzuverink]

agreed with dthoffset! sounds like Psuedotropheus P. Demasoni would work in your case. while it sounds like you have already heard that generally in most African cichlid tanks a 4 foot tank is needed. Demasoni is a dwarf cichlid that would better off being crowded in a tank like your 40 gallon.In the specificity of P. Demasoni , this species may limit your choices for other tank mates because of its aggressive behavior, but there are many other dwarf species like redrum and dthoffset have directed you to. but I might add that P. Demasoni is a popular fish for its brilliance, color, and personality and is for those reasons one of my favorites. if you think this species interests you i would start by reading the species profile that ferris has written on P. demasoni in the species profiles subforum in old world/ african cichlids where he has given alot of helpful information

 

[theshadowinc]

WoW the first site gave lots of information! And now learning there are some that just can't be mixed together and some that can as well as some require big tanks and some can live in 10 gallon tanks , I always thaught cichlids where a big tank requirement as in 55gal and up kinda happy I asked this question or I would still be thinking this. When I look at a fish species specific I also like to look at breed behaviour because sometimes fish breed without you know especially keeping clean water, also reading that some are really sensative to water change like 10-20% a week and dripped in wow! These seem simple to keep just alot of different rules and temps for all of them I have noticed as well as some prefur the shells and some prefer it rocky hmmm.... also some prefer sand to having rocky substrate for the breeding part of it. Must say wow and getting excited about this actually ^^ and learning alot to, still confused due to over welming myself with lots of species but some are just wow, mainly the colours that are what interest me, seeing the electric blue at the lfs really interested me they seem to carry the same colour gene as discus with the bright colour and found that its only certain ones that are colourful and some are actually to me ugly but I won't say that to loud for some that really like them will shoot me lol.

The ones I like
lake tanganyika cichlids
Neo Lamp prologus
brichardi
Calvus
Goby's
Yellow Juli

Psuedotropheus P. Demasoni is a definitly a good looking fish but very aggresive hmm.... so I see where thre would need to be lots of hiding places for them
Still doing some reading lots of information you pointed me to well the names of them helps to research them thanks still feel free to leave comments every bit helps in me diciding what way to go I doubt the lfs will have these in so might have to do a airport to airport and ship these in so still doing research on habitat and food ect on these fellas to see what one I like the most and I am thinking more and more the best way is to stick to one species now thanks for the insight
Zebra Cichlids

 

[theshadowinc]

Okay found the one I think I will stick to for sure

Pseudotropheus sp. Demasoni

So good looking and wow they share the same temper as me, wait cept for the killing part lol
Definitly a Awsome fish and would work in the 40gal and would it be suitable for 6 year old ?
Well I definitly would help on this one, even with the 6 year old daughter only having 3 years of experience
I think the experience will have to come from me in caring for these, I have read alot of conflicting things
about these fish so If some people could give me there views on them and what are the considered
Old World or New World <- I get confused by how they are new or old world

I have heard up to 10 fish in a 40 gal but its recommended 2 males with 6 females and maybe add 2 more females to the choice of sleeping with?? LoL To help spread the aggression out during the spawning season!

The things I havn't figured out yet is filtration for them, all the food they could eat, how many times spawn how sex them
Other thing is I doubt my local fish store carries these will have to have a look to see and should these kind of fish always be bagged individually??

 

[theshadowinc]

Found a breeder of them about 2 hours away (Pseudotropheus sp. Demasoni)
Looked in pet stores today and they want anywhere from 5.99 for the f44
Don't really understand the f part of them although the f44 that strips horizontal

The person I talked to Has F1's I believe they are, although not advertising as F1's
http/windsor.kijij...?AdId=166889187
Is 12 for 35 a good deal?? As I have seen some that are advertised at the lfs as f1's with 7 bars for up to 30 ea
Problem is I asked for 2 Males and 6 females and optional 2 more females to the batch and the person is only
Willing to let 6 females and 6 males go but thats to many for my tank!

I have also been talking to this breeder on what he has available, apperently he shipped his in from the wild, and from how he talks it sounds interesting more less to say, also prices are as follows 10 = $20 , also offers 20 = 35
what would be the best way to stock these, the same as above 2 males to 6 females? Our lfs are 6.99 for these some where even 11.99 and definitly not one store where I live have any of these to makes me believe they are wild cause he told me shipping was retarded in price! (I know this from shipping Discus Airport to Airport) These are from lake malawii I believe and one of the smaller fish species.
Pseudotropheus sp. "Acei" Black - Yellow Tail

http/london.kijiji.ca/c-ViewAdLargeImage?AdId=160543167

Check out all the pictures and let me know what you all think and what the going rate is and if its a fair price seems fair to me, better to usually ask experienced people with this as I am not that experienced at all and would be my first keeping these.

This person in the last part also has others for sale not sure on the names getting a list from him, What are all your opionions on what one would be okay to go with the better of the 2, price wise isn't really an issue

 

[mjzuverink]

okay so i couldnt get the picture links to work for some reason but thats alright. im glad to hear that you are considering the P. demasoni. i would still stick with these and make it a species tank, and yes im sure your daughter would adore them, as long as you help keep them. now where i am from these are rare and hard for me to find, when i do frind them they are atleast $15 dollars, so i would think 12 for 35 is a good deal ! one problem is the 6 males and 6 females, you definitely only want 1, maybe 2 males and the rest to be females. also, in my opinion, you dont want any less then ten fish total, but i wouldnt say thats necessarally a rule. so i would look for aroun 7-9 females and a male to them to go with. having multiple males woulf probably lead to crazy aggrestion and loss of some fish. if you live in the US , i would suggest looking on auqabid.com but there is usually shipping. now if you do get this species you are going to want lots of filtration and prob from more then one source. while you might get away with around 7x circulation an hour, more is always better. they are herbavores, so nothing too meaty, a good spirulla flake, and you can also do variety of vegetables, like romane lettuce. I am not sure how often they breed, but they are difficult to sex, best way would be to vent them or watch for male behavior. also since your over stocking to srpead aggression, make sure there is lots of rock work for them to hide and make territories. sorry for the long reply but hope it helped.

oh and dont quote me on this but old world generally refers to all african species and new world refers to south and central american species. i believe it has to do with african species evolving during the "old world" time period and south and central american species evolving and adaptively radiating during the "new world" era

 

[theshadowinc]

Okay I am a little confused here ><
Help! Please!

Pseudotropheus sp. "Acei"
Pseudotropheus sp. Demasoni

What is the major difference between the 2, I am guessing both are from the same family and both can be pricey to buy, both seem to like the same water as well as rocks so what is the major difference between the 2, since the wife is interested in both but only going for one setup this is mainly a question I want answered to help decide in what fish to go with for the final choice , also the Demasoni I can pick those up anytime and the Acei are local and cheap from a local breeder, but Demasoni is a 2 hour drive to get and I don't really mind that at all

Demasoni I understand as huge aggressors especially during breeding (Not hybrid)
Assuming I get 6 males and 6 females I will guess there will be deaths No option from the breeder on how many male and female also hear that they can be extremely hard to sex when only Juv's
Acei I understand as mild aggression very violent when breeding (They are not hybrid)?
Still doing research on this kind to be honest, I think I read right that they seem to be okay having even male and female till breeding time Please correct me if I am wrong

I think I have a 6x turnover rate on the tank now and only 1 filter system I could always add a second system to it like hang on back for some extra filtration if needed but do you think 6x would be enough external canister

 

[mjzuverink]

besides personal prefernce of colors and appearance, the only differences i can see is in size. the demasoni are a dwarf species so would be better suited for 40 gallon compared to the acei. I have a full grown acei in my assorted tank and he is over 6 inches long which would be too big for your 40 gallon.

for filtration i think the 6x your gettin from yo canister is enough but i might suggest UGJ filtration. this idea was shown to me dthoffset, so i must give her the credit. information on it can be read here: undergravel jets

these seem to be inexpensive and created a good amount filtration and minimize tank cleaning.
* I havent tried using these yet but plan to on my next tank as so brialliantly suggested by dthoffset

 

[theshadowinc]

besides personal prefernce of colors and appearance, the only differences i can see is in size. the demasoni are a dwarf species so would be better suited for 40 gallon compared to the acei. I have a full grown acei in my assorted tank and he is over 6 inches long which would be too big for your 40 gallon.

for filtration i think the 6x your gettin from yo canister is enough but i might suggest UGJ filtration. this idea was shown to me dthoffset, so i must give her the credit. information on it can be read here: undergravel jets

these seem to be inexpensive and created a good amount filtration and minimize tank cleaning.
* I havent tried using these yet but plan to on my next tank as so brialliantly suggested by dthoffset

Thanks for the undergravel jet idea I read the entire thing and thaught to myself #41#### why didnt I think of something like that for my planted tank

Okay here is where I got confused with Pseudotropheus sp. acei, I did the research and found conflicting pictures of what they look like and conflicting information is why I am glad for this site

Apperently there are 2 kinds
Pseudotropheus acei (Msuli) Requires 55 Gallon actually its not really the gallons its they need length 48" wide tank
This one apperently grows to 7" definitly not suitable for a 40 gal,
Pseudotropheus acei (Ngara) Requires 40 Gallons
Grows just over 4" ~ anywhere from 4-6" in max length
(This is enough to confuse someone new in keeping africans since it always goes by scientific names why the same name that confuses the heck out of me. Are they actually 2 different fish or are they just the same) or did I discover something a little rare that not many know about this kind?

The Breeder ~ Has a wild pair not mixed with any other cichlid,(they had the babies) says they are the dwarf ones and said scientific name is Pseudotropheus acei (Ngara), says a 40gal is okay for them but for the Msuli ones that a 55 is required

Is he bluffing? Just wants to get rid of the babies?<- I understand about getting rid of babies lol they tie room up! You would understand my views why I would say no if they grow more than 6" as explained so far in our post here

So far my research shows that Ngara is new to me haha and had no idea the two different types, yet explains all the different conflicting information about the 2 that I have read about.

Pseudotropheus sp. Demasoni Now about this one is looking promising only cause I know its a dwarf for sure, only issue is 6 males and 6 females ~ Havn't found anything to show how to sex them myself when I am there and pick them up if this is the fish I go with, its looking more promising actually for this kind, as the other kind we are going to see but honestly I am just not in love with the colours unless they stand out completely amazing me but yet the fish is not suited for my aquarium!
Where can I find photos showing me how to sex them as I have found a photo for the Ngara on how to sex those
http/malawicichlids.com/mw09005e.htm

 

[mjzuverink]

well im really not sure but if i had to guess, they are two populations of what is still the same species. the msuli and ngara may have grown apart to fit different niches in lake malawi but have not seperated as a species yet.

sexing them is very hard, while i hope to be starting a species tank in the next year, i have only ever had one at a time, so i dont really have experience sexing them. from everything i have heard it is very vague characteristics, like most cichlids males will be more vibrant and brilliant in there striping and color. they will have longer fins. and there behavior is more aggresive. now i dono if the breeder will let you do this or not, but if so you could try and vent them, havent done this either but if you hold the fish looking at its underside infront of he anal fin there should be a hole if it looks white and swollen it is a female. but this would be harder to see the younger the fish are

 

[dthoffsett]

Wow, glad to hear you're so excited about getting cichlids, they really are great.

To my knowledge both P.acei variants reach 6-7" and are best in a minimum 4ft tank, though they would appreciate a 6ft for swimming space.

The P.demasoni would be perfect for your tank, I was going to get 12-15 of them for a 40gal but am unable to source that size tank, so I'm getting a 55 (more fish for me he he). Since you are in the US, I would suggest contacting rockymountaincichlids@yahoo.com . That's were I'm getting mine, the stock list shows they are currently out, but Bob told me if you give him a couple of weeks he can probably get some. If you get juveniles they can't sex them, but statistically you are likely to get mostly females. If he can source adults for you, you should be able to specify how many of each sex. I'm kind of surprised your local breeder won't work with you on ratios.

Just be sure you fishless cycle the tank before adding any fish as mbuna do not tolerate a fish-in cycle.


Oh, and Old World vs. New World. Old World refers to any cichlid species from Africa, Madagascar, etc; New World refers to those from Central/South America ie. the New World that was "discovered" by Columbus.

 

[theshadowinc]

Fishless cycle is already done, as I used old media to help it, also been running for a month and been monitoring the cycle Its finally done

Went and seen the Acei breeder today, and well he didn't sell them to me haha, actually recommended me to someone that breeds all the dwarfs, even though I already have someone that has fry cheaper for the Demoni, and the strain is f1 hey sell just like discus do here 30 and up erm, local breeder is 15 ea, and the one in windsor is 12 for forget the price 20 I think

Hope my discus decide to breed some time lol, he will buy some

The Demoni are the choice the price is right and also they are juvs so sexing might be hard to do....
12 Demoni I wouln't mind starting out with that way if I lose any It really wouldn't be a big deal since I wanted 6 female and 2 males ~ This breeder is running into number issues I think is why so cheap he started out with 1000 fry and now down to 150 and the parents are breeding again not sure how old they are.

Other thing is the wife okayed me starting up my breeding again So I would even consider breeding these at a later date. Probably way later unless they start right away doing the nasty lol

My List for breeding is this
Discus
Otto's (In Community Tank cause its plantd) I know they are hard to do
Gourmis Both Blue and Red
Angles (Albino's and some other rare ones)
Africans(Would be interested in all dwarfs cause they are rare here)LFS has none cept 2 Demoni and both look to be hybrid
Half Moon Betta's etc maybe doubt it

Breeding centre When I dig all stuff out will be about
4 - 20 gal
5 - 30 gal
5 - 40 gal
3 - 55 gal Have to buy
1- 70 gal Have to buy
1-110 gal Have to buy (This tank might be reserved with a 90 Gal from a neighbour reason is has sharks he is interested in breeding and never done i before but neither have I)

55 Planted Tannk
40 Demoni Tank

 

[mjzuverink]

hey dthoffset, do know off hand what rockymountaincichlids@yahoo.com general prices are for juv demasoni?