New + Questions!

millie1

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hiya - just joined and today i have bought 4 new fish!

can anyone tell me about ghost carp - - how big they grow etc.....

anyhow

ive also been researching into tropical fish
few questions if you can answer them?

1) im intrested in keeping a blue lobster (this is one its own as they eat other fish sometimes is that correct?) + how much about do these cost - ive seen them range from £2.50 - £10 and more.....

2) tropical fish and hermit crabs - can they be kept together? and whats ideal size of tank for lots of fish

i realise i have to have the tank for 4-6 weeks to test it etc before i just buy fish n stick em in! + just out of intrest why do this cycling and testing thing - can you not just filter the water for a few weeks? or do you have to add things (im not intending to skip im just curious!)


thanks..... :drool:
 
i can't help you with losters and crabs i'm afraid but about the cycling thing, merely having a tank for 4 to 6 weekswill not be good enough, you have to be active in cycling for example, adding ammonia, for it to work (are you planning on fishless cycling? it's the reccommended method). you couldn't just filter the water for a few weeks, there wouldn't be anything to filter. cycling is the process of growing bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrite, and then into nitrate. ammonia and nitrite can't be filtered out using a filter mechanically, they can only be broken down by the bacteria. until there is a source of 'food' for the bacteria (ammonia) they won't grow. you therefore must add the ammonia to begin with.

there is a lot of info on here about cycling fishless and with fish, but go for the fishless cycling
 
Ghost Koi grow to aroun 15-20" and are far more suited to a suitable pond.

Most hermit crabs are marine and can be kept with some fish. If you are new to the hoby, I wouldn't start with marines. It's a whole new world.

The reason we have to add "stuff" to a new tank is so that bacteria can grow and break this "stuff" down. The "stuff" in question is ammonia (found in fish poop) and it's poisoness to fish. There are links on this site that will explain fully.

Kind Regards

//James
 
thanks for the replies guys

dont mean to be offensive but i really didnt realise that keeping fish was so complex!!!


whats cycling with fish???
 
Its just using the bacteria produced from fish to cycle the tank. This is bad becuase it can take a lot longer and also it cruel to the fish to put them through it.
 
does it mean like set the tank up and then 'see how it goes'

ive no intention of doing that if its cruel.....
 
Hi there millie1 :)

Out in the wild, fish have vast quantities of water to dilute harmful things that might be in their water. Unfortunately, even the biggest aquarium is much too small to achieve all of what nature does for the fish, without help from some artificial systems.

When fish "breathe" through their gills, they give off ammonia. Their waste breaks down to ammonia. Any excess food they don't eat breaks down to ammonia. Any dead plant material breaks down to.. you guessed it, ammonia.

Ammonia, even in tiny quantities in an aquarium, burns fish gills and causes permanent damage to the fish. Even if it lives, it is never quite the same internally.

Another poison for fish is nitrite (NO2). Nitrite molecules attach to the hemoglobin of fish blood and replace the sites there that should be carrying oxygen. The fish begin to suffocate and suffer permanent damage.

When you buy an aquarium filter, it is just a raw collection of hardware, a "kit" as it were, and it needs often about 4 to 8 weeks of knowledgeable preparation before it is ready for fish. Fish should not be introduced to an aquarium until this work has been performed.

We call the this filter preparation work "Cycling." The term comes about from the environmental process called the Nitrogen Cycle, and when we prepare a tank properly, before there are fish, we call it "Fishless Cycling." (If something goes wrong or someone doesn't know yet about fishless cycling and there are fish in the tank, then we call it "Fish-In" Cycling.)

[ :) ok, hang in there, this may look long, but its really fascinating and pretty easy reading]

To prepare our filter with a fishless cycle, we set up our whole running aquarium without fish. We go out and find the correct type of pure household ammonia and add it in small controlled amounts to the aquarium water. Amazingly, no matter where you are, there will be certain types of bacteria that will begin to eat this ammonia and grow in a colony.

In our filter we put try to put the perfect media that will have surfaces for the bacteria we are trying to grow. We test and monitor our water so that it is just the right sort of "soup" the bacteria like. We are trying to grow two specific species of bacteria.

The first species (let's call them "A-Bacs" for ammonia oxidizing bacteria) will eat ammonia and from it, produce nitrite (NO2), unfortunately the other poison for our fish! The second species (let's call these "N-Bacs" for nitrite oxidizing bacteria) will eat the nitrite (NO2) and from that they will produce nitrate (NO3) (note the slight difference in these words!)

Luckily, nitrate (NO3) is not nearly as harmful to our fish and can be removed from the tank via weekly water changes.

So fishless cycling is the process of growing the A-Bacs and the N-Bacs on the filter media (the sponges, rings or pebbles.. there are various media that work) by having fresh, warm, oxygenated water flow through the filter with the food the bacteria love (the ammonia and subsequently, the nitrite) until we see by our testing that the bacterial colonies are large enough and healthy enough to keep the water clean for a full stocking of fish.

There are all sorts of helpful and friendly TFF members here who enjoy guiding new hobbyists through this fishless cycling process and helping to make it easier, often because someone previously helped them in the same way!

Anyway, this is basically what many of the articles will be telling you (but sometimes in more detail), so I hope this was helpful, and good luck in your own learning!

~~waterdrop~~
 
*Edit* Waterdrop beat me to it while I was fetching coffee...silly work XD

Aquariums don't have to complicated...it can be a very simple hobby once you get over the initial learning curve. Generally the most difficult aspects for beginners are: cycling and proper stocking.

Cycling is just a simple term for creating a biological filter in your tank. Although the explanations sometimes seem complicated (perhaps due to use of chemical names)...it's simply a matter of bacteria eating one type of chemical, and producing another as waste. One thing that is important to know: Ammonia and Nitrite are poisonous to fish. (The former burning gills and potentially causing long-term/fatal damage, the latter preventing fish from carrying enough oxygen in the bloodstream - thus also potentially fatal). Once your tank is cycled, bacteria that flourishes in the filter materials consume Ammonia and Nitrite as food, converting it into a much less toxic chemical called Nitrate...which we help remove by doing partial water changes.

The potential long term damage caused by Ammonia is one of the reasons "fishless cycling" is so strongly recommended...another reason being that fishless cycling is a LOT less work. It does require a few things: a) a source of "pure" ammonia, b) a test kit (which you should have anyway), and c) the patience to endure an empty tank for several weeks. The alternative, fish-in cycling, can require multiple daily water changes for weeks just to keep the fish alive! Trust me, I've done it and it is NOT fun.

How large is your tank? If you give us an idea, we may be able to assist you with planning out your stocking choices.
 
hi there, well i think WD has answered most of your questions, just to share a bit of personal experience.

Back in the old days fishkeepers really didn't understand much about the cycling process, so they just put fish in a tank with some water and tried to muddle through as best they could, they found out from experience that any delicate fish would die in the first month or so after setting up a tank so you were always told to start the tank off with something hardy like danio's or mollies. As knowledge grew people started to understand the nitrogen cycle and why this was, they understood about the biological filter and why the sensitive fish died at the start. Eventually as knowledge developed towards the 80's people started experiementing with fishless cycling, adding fish food and such like to simulate waste productiong to try to avoid the cycle period at the start, over a few years by all sorts of people this was refined into what we see today, but fishless cycling didn't really take off until the internet became widespread and people started sharing knowledge and talking to each other, even now there's still an awful lot of people who just wouldn't contemplate using the web to research or anything like that.

A lot of the people who run fish shops are older people who've been keeping fish since their childhood, becase as a youngster they learnt all about cycling with fish and they *knew* that that was how you'd start a tank off they see no reason to do anymore research. After all why research something you've known all your life to be correct? So you get a lot of fish shops and (forgive me as there are a good few notable exceptions on this forum) a lot of the older generation who will still advise you to cycle with a few danio's or just to leave the tank running for 2 weeks with no fish in and then add whatever you like.

My Dad's been a fishkeeper all his life so it stands to reason when I wanted to start an aquarium up I asked him to help me, he gave me some of his books from the 70's and gave me the usual 'leave it for 2 weeks then put some platys in' which I did and my first tank turned out to be a nightmare, I lost most of the first few batches of fish, just kept replacing them as my Dad said it was normal to loose some fish at the start (and me being the typical teenager at the time I wasn't wholly honest with my dad about how many I lost :rolleyes: ). When I fancied new fish I went and bought whatever looked pretty, no knowledge of compatibility, group sizes, tank sizes needed or anything, predictably lots of these died as well. Over time the tank stabilised and I seemed to have a bit more sucess over the next year or two.

Then I met my other half just as he was starting to cycle his first tank fishlessly, he introduced me to this forum and it totally opened my eyes to fishkeeping. I went through the fishless cycle with him and saw how sucessful it was having done it and how little hassle he had from his tank. It totally converted me to the modern way of doing things and conviced me that fishless cycling is the way to go. Although in fact I've never actually done a fishless cycle of my own!

So as it stands you'll still get a lot of conflicting advice about cycling from fish shops, hobbyists, the internet and from this forum. Of course we all think that our way is the rigth way of doing things, you just have to read all you can and make your own mind up.

You seem to have the best interests of the fish at heart and that's what really matters, just take your time and decide what to do. If you're unsure about anything just ask questions, we can provide scientific evidence to justify our methods if that would give you more confidence in them or anecdotal evidence as above.

So long ramble not telling you much at all..... but read throug all the pinned topics and the links in my sig and fire away when you've some specific questions :good:
 
wow thanks your all so helpful!

im new to all this so want to learn more...

im looking into tropical fish as well as marine - thinking tropical would be a better starting point ? (after coldwater which i have now)

what are teh start up costs etc for the marine tanks/etc without fish.... (and without the cost of the tank)

im planning on getting a 4 foot tank - by as high and wide as i can (the unit it huge tht i already have)

matter of intrest - the tropical tanks - do they have a minimum height/depth they should be for say a couple of fish?

im gettina 4 foot one anyhow but am just curious

thanks :)
 
Well what sort of fish are you thinking about? A 4 foot tank is huge, and that will allow you to keep almost any tropical species, or if you chose, some of the larger species such as African cichlids.

I definitely recommend starting with freshwater fish. Marine is a very expensive hobby. It's not a good idea to start a marine tank, then decide you don't have the time/money to maintain it or lose interest in doing all the maintenance after a year or so. You will not get your investment back if you fail, you could be hundreds of dollars - even thousands - out of pockets. Not only is it far eaiser to make a go at freshwater but if for any reason you don't want to, or can't, keep your tank you will often get most of the cost of it back.

The only time when tank dimensions really come into it is when dealing with territorial fish. Plecos and other territorial bottom or surface dwellers need surface (or bottom) area. Put them into a shallow tank with large dimensions otherwise. Angelfish on the other hand require a tall tank. Not sure what the minimum is because I haven't kept them, but it's a tall tank.
 
im looking into tropical fish as well as marine - thinking tropical would be a better starting point ? (after coldwater which i have now)

what are teh start up costs etc for the marine tanks/etc without fish.... (and without the cost of the tank)

it's really your call, if you want to start with marine then there is no reason why you can't do so, it just means more money and a lot more learning. There's a whole lot more science to learn and the cost is generally a lot more (there's a few different types of marine set up's, some are cheaper than others but speaking generally it is more expensive), for a reasonably sized marine tank I'd say your minimum budget for tank and equipment is about £7/800, then you've got to get live rock on top of that which is another couple of hundred quid, minimum. You'll need a 'clean up crew' which is various shrimps, snails, crabs etc which assist in keeping the tank clean that'll be another £75-100 so all that before you've even got a fish, then the cheapest marine fish is about £15, it's far from unusual for one fish to be £50-100.

It's really fascinating and very rewarding if you do want to get into it, but if you're on a budget I'd not recommend it!!

matter of intrest - the tropical tanks - do they have a minimum height/depth they should be for say a couple of fish?

it depends on the fish really, some species such as angelfish need a tank at least 18" tall, some species like any largeish catfish will be more bothered about the length of the tank.

Have a look through the link in my sig 'step by step guide to setting up an aquarium' which talks a bit more about picking the right tank size along with bits about equipment and so on.

A good tip before buying the tank is to take a trip to your local fish shop or round all the ones in your area, take a pen and paper with you and write down the names of all the fish that you like, if you then come back here and post up the list we can let you know if any of them have any special requirements to make sure you get an appropriate tank and we can start to narrow down a stocking list for you. :good:
 
i have a 2 ghost carp and both are around the 18 inches mark maybe more. however they are in a pond!!!! it will easily outgrow a tank millie1.
 

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