New Fishless Cycle (Have A Couple ?'s)

[Mounit98]

Hi all......

All of my fish died because of my lack of knowledge and finding out TOO LATE about "Cycling" so I am starting over brand new, and starting my "Fishless Cycle"!

I read about the fishless cycle on these forums, so this is where my questions come into play!

I completely cleaned everything....added new water, and then added my tap water conditioner. I then tested the water like the article said just so I would know how my tap water is from the get go. Here are the results.

I tested with API Master test kit.....

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
PH 7.6
High PH 8.0

This is a good start right?

My questions are.....after 3 days of letting it sit, and must start adding the ammonia to get the cycling process started. It says to raise the ammonia to 4 to 5 ppm. Is that 0.4 to 0.5 ppm? If so Im not sure how I will be able to test this correctly bc the master kit chart starts at 0 ppm 0.25 ppm 0.50 ppm ect. Am I pretty much eyeballing the colors? This is what I might have a hard time doing, so any help on this matter would be great!

Also....All of my decorations, heater, and filter should be in the tank and running....correct? Also I have 2 bubblers (If thats what you would call them) running in my tank...is that ok? One more thing.....should I be leaving my light on as well?

Sorry for all the questions, but the article never mentioned these things so I thought I would ask the experts =)

THANK YOU ALL!!!!


API Master Test Kit
Day 1 8:30pm Ammonia 4-5ppm HighPH 8.4 PH not tested Temp @ 84*F
Day 2 8:30pm Ammonia 4-5ppm HighPH ? (Rose color NOT on chart) PH 7.6 Temp @ 84*F
Day 3 8:30pm Ammonia 4ppm Temp @ 84*F
Day 4 8:30pm Ammonia 0.75ppm HighPH 8.0 (Maybe) PH 7.6 Temp @ 84*F
Day 5 8:30pm Ammonia 0ppm HighPH 8.0 Nitrite 5.0+ Temp @ 84*F Added 2.50ml Ammonia 3ppm
Day 6 8:30pm Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 5.0 Temp @ 84*F Added 3.30ml Ammonia 4ppm Nitrate 7.5
Day 7 8:30pm Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 1.0 Nitrate 7.5 Temp @ 84*F Added 3.30ml Ammonia 4ppm
Day 8 8:30pm Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 1.0 Nitrate 5.0 Temp @ 84*F Added 3.30ml Ammonia 4ppm
Day 9 8:30pm Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 1.0 Temp @ 84*F Added 3.30ml Ammonia 4ppm
Day 10 8:30pm Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 1.0 Temp @ 84*F Added 3.30ml Ammonia 4ppm
Day 11 8:30pm Ammonia 0ppm Nitrite 0.50 Nitrate 7.5 Temp @ 84*F Added 3.30ml Ammonia 4ppm

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Mounit98 and welcome to the beginners section!

Hopefully you just used tap water to clean things. Soaps and detergents should not be used on tank objects.

Good job getting your testing kit and beginning again. Persistence pays off! Also a good thing posting your tap stats and yes, they look quite good.

You can use our calculator to get a guesstimate of how many milliliters of ammonia might get you to 5ppm (yes, its 5, not .5) and then its better to start a little low and test your way up to the right color (which, unfortunately is also just a guess,) taking notes as you go.

What type of pure household ammonia did you find? We all often enjoy hearing if someone had an adventure finding it. It doesn't foam when shaken, right? And clear, no dyes or fragrances?

The important thing about dosing the ammonia initially is to just match it to the 4ppm color and be sure that its not the 8ppm color. At 8ppm a different bacterial species gets encouraged. You'll get more used to it as you go. You'll find eventually that we really use the tests as rough confirmations based on knowledge as opposed to an accurate numbers that magically tell us what to do. This is why the forum interaction works so well as opposed to just a list of steps.

You only need the filter and heater. The filter is of course the thing you are cycling (the bacteria we care about are in the filter, not in the water, once they begin colonizing) and its important to review your media choices (the layers of substances in the filter) at the start. You need the heater because the ideal growing temperature for the bacteria is 84F/29C. The airstones are fine to run. Even though airstones are mostly decorative, every tiny bit of help to the oxygen situation can help the bacteria. Moving the surface water with the filter outlet will help the most. Decorations and plants will probably just get algae, so unless you need to entertain children, you can save some cleaning by leaving them out just during the cycle. Likewise, light is just for growing plants and will just grow algae if you leave them on. In fact, one popular method of fishless cycling is to black out the tank with something that doesn't let light through (be sure it doesn't wick out water or catch on fire or bother the filter or such.) The lights can be turned on when you are testing and working with the tank. Also note that this choice is not a big deal and there are probably more people that decorate their tanks so they can look at them during the weeks of fishless cycling.

Try to establish a time of day for your testing (and ammonia dosing) that has another time of day 12 hours opposite such that you can be home at both those times (eg. 7am and 7pm or something like that.) In the latter stages of cycling you test at both 12 and 24 hours. You only ever add ammonia at your 24 hour "add-mark" and its good if its roughly the same time each day. You only ever add ammonia if it went to zero ppm within the previous 24 hours. Even if ammonia is zero at 12 hours you still wait for the 24 hour mark to add more.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Mounit98]

Hi Mounit98 and welcome to the beginners section!

Hopefully you just used tap water to clean things. Soaps and detergents should not be used on tank objects.

Good job getting your testing kit and beginning again. Persistence pays off! Also a good thing posting your tap stats and yes, they look quite good.

You can use our calculator to get a guesstimate of how many milliliters of ammonia might get you to 5ppm (yes, its 5, not .5) and then its better to start a little low and test your way up to the right color (which, unfortunately is also just a guess,) taking notes as you go.

What type of pure household ammonia did you find? We all often enjoy hearing if someone had an adventure finding it. It doesn't foam when shaken, right? And clear, no dyes or fragrances?

The important thing about dosing the ammonia initially is to just match it to the 4ppm color and be sure that its not the 8ppm color. At 8ppm a different bacterial species gets encouraged. You'll get more used to it as you go. You'll find eventually that we really use the tests as rough confirmations based on knowledge as opposed to an accurate numbers that magically tell us what to do. This is why the forum interaction works so well as opposed to just a list of steps.

You only need the filter and heater. The filter is of course the thing you are cycling (the bacteria we care about are in the filter, not in the water, once they begin colonizing) and its important to review your media choices (the layers of substances in the filter) at the start. You need the heater because the ideal growing temperature for the bacteria is 84F/29C. The airstones are fine to run. Even though airstones are mostly decorative, every tiny bit of help to the oxygen situation can help the bacteria. Moving the surface water with the filter outlet will help the most. Decorations and plants will probably just get algae, so unless you need to entertain children, you can save some cleaning by leaving them out just during the cycle. Likewise, light is just for growing plants and will just grow algae if you leave them on. In fact, one popular method of fishless cycling is to black out the tank with something that doesn't let light through (be sure it doesn't wick out water or catch on fire or bother the filter or such.) The lights can be turned on when you are testing and working with the tank. Also note that this choice is not a big deal and there are probably more people that decorate their tanks so they can look at them during the weeks of fishless cycling.

Try to establish a time of day for your testing (and ammonia dosing) that has another time of day 12 hours opposite such that you can be home at both those times (eg. 7am and 7pm or something like that.) In the latter stages of cycling you test at both 12 and 24 hours. You only ever add ammonia at your 24 hour "add-mark" and its good if its roughly the same time each day. You only ever add ammonia if it went to zero ppm within the previous 24 hours. Even if ammonia is zero at 12 hours you still wait for the 24 hour mark to add more.

~~waterdrop~~

Awesome Waterdrop!!! Thank you for commenting!

Yep I cleaned everything really good with just plain ol tap water!! =) I havent found any ammonia yet....I am on the search in doing so, but I still have 2 days to get some, so hopefully it wont be such a task =) TY for the help on the ammonia situation...I was worried that I didnt understand it, but now that I go back and look at the color chart/card I understand where my tank its gonna need to be at. I read, to take a bucket (I have a 5 gallon bucket) and add your water to it (knowing how much water you are adding) and put a couple drops in at a time and test it to see how much ammonia I will need to put each time. So Im guessing that its ok to do partial water changes when adding the ammonia? I was just thinking about it....say the ammonia in the bucket is at 4ppm....when I add it to my tank wont it change bc its being added to much more water? There must be something Im missing here.

Another question for you....Should I turn up the temp in the tank? I have it set between 75 to 80 bc of the fish I had in it before. Should I have it up to 84f? This was another question I had, but forgot to ask.

Also my filter has the stones that are in a net bag...do you kno what I mean? Is this gonna work?

Thanks again for all the help....I would have given up already if it werent for this forum!!!!

 

[nork]

Where are you located, Mounit?

If you're in the states and have Ace Hardware or Westlake Hardware stores (same thing, different name), you can find 10% ammonia there.

This is what I have and have luck with it, I've also seem several other people across many forums using it with great luck as well.

If not, still try to look in local/mom and pop hardware stores or any store that sells professional janitorial supplies.

 

[Mounit98]

Where are you located, Mounit?

If you're in the states and have Ace Hardware or Westlake Hardware stores (same thing, different name), you can find 10% ammonia there.

This is what I have and have luck with it, I've also seem several other people across many forums using it with great luck as well.

If not, still try to look in local/mom and pop hardware stores or any store that sells professional janitorial supplies.

I am in the US and we do have an Ace Hardware!! Do you kno the brand or the name of the product so I will kno exactly what to look for? If not Im sure someone there can help me...Ill just have to make sure it contains ammonia and water only. The only thing is the foaming part....How am I going to kno? Im guessing if the bottle is clear I will be able to notice.

If you kno the product name that might be helpful! =)

Thanks for the heads up!

 

[nork]

It's actually Ace Hardware's own brand.

They carry two different size bottles, I paid a couple bucks for one of the smaller bottles (which is still fairly decent sized).

It's this: http/www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1307957

That's the exact bottle I have, but the label looks exactly like this: http/www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1272325&clickid=body_rv_img

As you can see, it's 10% ammonia hydroxide. I found both bottle sizes in the cleaning section, among the Pinesol and other crap.

There is no ingredients list on the bottle, but after reading that other people have had success, giving it the shake test and seeing no foaming bubbles (there will be a couple of air bubbles that almost immediately pop, but that's ok), I decided to go for it. I've used it for the fishless cycle I'm currently in that you can read from the link in my signature. I'm not giving credit to the ammonia, but you can see it's been a fairly successful cycle up to this point.

Oh, and in the store, they sell individual bottles, no worries about being forced to take home 6 or 15 packs.
And even though it's fragrance free, ammonia has it's own fragrance..

So don't just crack open the bottle and take a big whiff!

 

[waterdrop]

Good advice Nork, the Ace Hardware chains have become a top choice for finding it in the US. ( and there's still the Harris-Teeter grocery stores in the southeast, which is really handy for those of us in North Carolina!) In the UK, Boots seems to top the list, although there are others: Homebase, possibly Robert Dyas or B&Q and some find a version of Jeyes Kleen-Off in various places although you have to be careful because they are one of the ones that also apparently make dyed ones or versions with fragrance or soaps or something.

"Stones in a bag" sounds like ceramics (white or beige like the stuff inside a pottery kiln) which are great - top biomedia. But we want to be sure its not "zeolite" which can look like little white chips and we don't need black carbon as thats just a special purpose thing.

Should you turn up the temp? Of course! You are trying to create a good "Bacterial Growing Soup" , not keep fish. All this water will be thrown out before you get fish, so the only point of it is to most efficiently grow the bacteria. 84F/29C is the best temp for them in my opinion and a pH of 8.0 to 8.4 is optimal although we don't just go adjusting that without discussing it. Everything that goes in the tank should be mentioned in your thread.

You are overthinking the adding of ammonia to the tank the first time. You don't need to dose buckets (unless you just want to run a little 2 gallon test to work out the right number of milliliters or drops).. instead you can just use the calculator here on our web page (taking a guess that the ammonia you get is 9.5% concentration or using what it says on the bottle) and dose the ammonia directly to the tank (you need to buy a squeeze bulb syringe ideally from a pharmacy (get two one for test water, one for ammonia)) just trying to start a little lower in amount than the calculator says, then doing an ammonia test with your API kit, then adding some more ammonia etc. and keeping track on paper. The goal is to figure out X number of milliliters that gives you 4ppm concentration in -your- tank. That gives you a baseline amount that makes sense for using throughout your fishless cycle.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[nork]

Ah, WD, I always thought you were from the UK, or thereabouts.

 

[waterdrop]

Nope, me and RDD, both in North Carolina. BTW, I walked in to a new Ace Hardware here recently and confirmed.. there it was exactly as your link pictures and its the right stuff (although I have to say.. my grocery store ammonia was less than a buck for twice as big a bottle! And really handy being my own regular grocery store. Couldn't believe my luck when I found it!)

I lament the loss of people's locations (just at a country state sort of level, it was, usually) right there in the avatar area. I don't know whether that was a concious choice of exclusion when we made the IPBoard version change a while back or just an oversight or delayed thing or something. It was just helpful for things like where things can be purchased, what people's hot water tanks are like, what brands of products are available, whether its likely to be night or day for the person you're communicating with, etc.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[nork]

Ha, yeah my "hunt" for ammonia consisted of seeing several people say "I found mine at Ace Hardware" and me driving just a smidge over a mile from my house to Ace Hardware and walking out with a bottle.

I feel bad for some of the people here who have absolutely no luck tracking some down, it's as if they're shopping for a leprechan riding a unicorn or something.

 

[Mounit98]

It's actually Ace Hardware's own brand.

They carry two different size bottles, I paid a couple bucks for one of the smaller bottles (which is still fairly decent sized).

It's this: http/www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1307957

That's the exact bottle I have, but the label looks exactly like this: http/www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1272325&clickid=body_rv_img

As you can see, it's 10% ammonia hydroxide. I found both bottle sizes in the cleaning section, among the Pinesol and other crap.

There is no ingredients list on the bottle, but after reading that other people have had success, giving it the shake test and seeing no foaming bubbles (there will be a couple of air bubbles that almost immediately pop, but that's ok), I decided to go for it. I've used it for the fishless cycle I'm currently in that you can read from the link in my signature. I'm not giving credit to the ammonia, but you can see it's been a fairly successful cycle up to this point.

Oh, and in the store, they sell individual bottles, no worries about being forced to take home 6 or 15 packs.
And even though it's fragrance free, ammonia has it's own fragrance..

So don't just crack open the bottle and take a big whiff!

Thanks for the details on the ammonia Nork!!! This will be a HUGE help when purchasing!!! I thot your picture looked familiar, so I clicked on your "Fishless Cyle Link" and I remember reading about it!

From what I have learned so far hehe seems like you are doing great!! It will be a big help to me with my progress, and I hope I have as much luck as you have! =)

 

[nork]

No problem, one of my initial posts mentioned I'd try to help out where I can. Glad I was able to do so.

 

[Mounit98]

Good advice Nork, the Ace Hardware chains have become a top choice for finding it in the US. ( and there's still the Harris-Teeter grocery stores in the southeast, which is really handy for those of us in North Carolina!) In the UK, Boots seems to top the list, although there are others: Homebase, possibly Robert Dyas or B&Q and some find a version of Jeyes Kleen-Off in various places although you have to be careful because they are one of the ones that also apparently make dyed ones or versions with fragrance or soaps or something.

"Stones in a bag" sounds like ceramics (white or beige like the stuff inside a pottery kiln) which are great - top biomedia. But we want to be sure its not "zeolite" which can look like little white chips and we don't need black carbon as thats just a special purpose thing.

Should you turn up the temp? Of course! You are trying to create a good "Bacterial Growing Soup" , not keep fish. All this water will be thrown out before you get fish, so the only point of it is to most efficiently grow the bacteria. 84F/29C is the best temp for them in my opinion and a pH of 8.0 to 8.4 is optimal although we don't just go adjusting that without discussing it. Everything that goes in the tank should be mentioned in your thread.

You are overthinking the adding of ammonia to the tank the first time. You don't need to dose buckets (unless you just want to run a little 2 gallon test to work out the right number of milliliters or drops).. instead you can just use the calculator here on our web page (taking a guess that the ammonia you get is 9.5% concentration or using what it says on the bottle) and dose the ammonia directly to the tank (you need to buy a squeeze bulb syringe ideally from a pharmacy (get two one for test water, one for ammonia)) just trying to start a little lower in amount than the calculator says, then doing an ammonia test with your API kit, then adding some more ammonia etc. and keeping track on paper. The goal is to figure out X number of milliliters that gives you 4ppm concentration in -your- tank. That gives you a baseline amount that makes sense for using throughout your fishless cycle.

~~waterdrop~~

YES!!!! They are ceramics!!! I got out the book that came with the tank, and kit and thats what it is.

Its a "Cycleguard Multi-Stage Filtration System"
Stage 1 Mechanical Foam Filter Insert
Stage 2 Chemical Activated Carbon Insert
Stage 3 Biological Biomax Insert

It says its a BioMax filter insert that contains BioMax ceramic rings. They are whitish greyish in color....kinda speckled...if that makes sense.


Anyway.....you were right. I was totally overthinking the adding ammonia process LOL I am a thinker, and I like to obsess so thats probably where it was getting the best of me. I understand completely what to do now so a BIG THANK YOU!!

I was just checking out the calculator.....

I am going to use the "Fishless Cycling-Ammonia Required" calculator right? My Unit is 20US Gallons, so I would put (20) in the volume section? I just didnt kno what the volume means on it.

 

[nork]

Change the "Unit" to 20 US Gal.
Volume would be 20, you are correct.
Make sure you change the ammonia % from 9.5 to 10 if you're buying the Ace Hardware ammonia.

I ran your numbers (20 US gallons trying to obtain 5 ppm with 10% ammonia) and it reported you would need 3.79 ml of ammonia.

I have one of those needleless syringes from the pharmacy (CVS or Walgreens, can't remember) to measure my ammonia amounts when adding to my tank.

Mine requires like 9.3 or so, I add an even 9 ml. It's best to add less and need more than to add more and need less.

 

[waterdrop]

LOL, nork, I just realized your giant red My Fishless Cycle Diary was a link. I clicked it and realized it a shame in a way that your fishless cycle is going so fast, you seem to enjoy the idea of the process and you've had excellent communication about it! WD