New Fish QT: Can Kordon Rid Ich Plus & Hikari PraziPro be used together?

[Firestorm_1976]

I am expecting to receive fish (red-eye red lyretail swordtails) shipped to me next week. This would be my first time getting fish shipped, so I am FREAKING OUT and wondering if QT should be different than when fish bought from a store (since they are probably much more stressed out d/t shipping). It will be coming from two different sellers. So, should I QT them separately or together (should be 6 swordtails total--4 from one seller and 2 from another seller--assuming both sellers ship, and all fish arrives alive)? Can Kordon Rid Ich Plus and Hikari PraziPro be used together to address potential ich and other parasites right away? Is antibiotic really needed preventatively or should I hold off if there are actual symptoms of infection? Aquarium Coop recommends Fritz Maracyn, and Fritz Maracyn is basically erythromycin, which (per my understanding) is probably the least effective against most common fish infections and it does kill the cycle. What am I missing? Aquarium Meds that I already have on hand are: API General Cure, API erythromycin (expired a couple of months ago), API Furan-2, Hikari PraziPro, Fritz Expel-P, Kordon Rid Ich Plus, KanaPlex, MetroPlex. I also have "natural" Tropical Science Fishkeeper and KORDON Ich Attack.

Normally, when I buy fish from a store, I only use PraziPro (2-3 rounds, a week or two apart) and as of recently, Fritz Expel-P (couple of rounds a week or so apart to rule out camallanus worms). But this time around, since the fish is being shipped, I wonder if I should start with KORDON Ich Attack and then go from there to get a jump start on ich. I usually QT at least 2 months, so plenty time to get everything done. Please advise!

 

[Colin_T]

Fish from different suppliers should be quarantined separately if you have space.

Do not mix medications, especially things that treat parasites and that contain formaldehyde, Malachite Green and other liquid poisons. Overdosing with these chemicals, or adding other chemicals can wipe out the tank.

Do not use antibiotics unless the fish have a known bacterial infection that hasn't responded to normal treatments. Improper use and mis-use of antibiotics has lead to drug resistant bacteria that kill people, birds, animals, reptiles and fish.

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The only thing you should use prophylactically is a deworming medication to treat intestinal worms and gill flukes.

Section 3 of the following link has info on treating fish for intestinal worms.
If you can get Flubendazole, that treats virtually all intestinal worms and gill flukes. Otherwise use praziquantel to treat for flat/ tapeworm and gill flukes; and use Levamisole for round/ thread worms.

What to do if your fish has Stringy White Poop.

Fish do a stringy white poop for several reasons. 1) Internal Bacterial Infections causes the fish to stop eating, swell up like a balloon, breath heavily at the surface or near a filter outlet, do stringy white poop, and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms. This cannot normally be...

www.fishforums.net

 

[Firestorm_1976]

The only thing you should use prophylactically is a deworming medication to treat intestinal worms and gill flukes.

Thank you so much, Colin! Normally, when I buy fish from a store, I only use PraziPro (2-3 rounds, a week or two apart) and as of recently, Fritz Expel-P (couple of rounds a week or so apart to rule out camallanus worms). I do have both meds on hand and am planning on using them this time around. Normally, I don't treat for ich during QT. But this time around, since the fish is being shipped, I wonder if I should start with KORDON Ich Attack and then go from there. I usually QT at least 2 months, so plenty time to get everything done.

 

[Colin_T]

There is no reason to treat for white spot or any other protozoan parasite unless the fish have symptoms. If the new fish start rubbing on objects or have white spots, then treat them, but unless they show some symptoms, they are probably going to be free of external diseases.

A lot of places that send fish make sure their fish are healthy so they don't have to replace them. A lot of these places are also home hobbyists that care about fish, unlike some of the CEOs of the big chain stores. However, you can still get bad fish from online stores just like the local pet store. Just quarantine and monitor the new fish and if they develop symptoms, then treat.

For white spot you can treat them with heat. You raise the water temperature to 30C (86F) and keep it there for 2 weeks, or at least 1 week after all the spots have gone. You don't need to add chemicals, just increase the temperature and aeration.

If the heater has trouble warming the water up that much, insulate the base, back and sides of the tank with 1-2 inch thick polystyrene foam sheets, and put a 5 or 6 mm thick coverglass on top of the tank.

Chemical medications can be used to treat white spot on coldwater fishes because most of them don't like 30C (86F) temperatures. But for all tropical fish, heat treatment for white spot is generally safe.

For other types of external protozoan parasites (except velvet & white spot), you can use salt. Use 2 heaped tablespoons of rock salt per 20 litres (5 gallons) of water. Keep salt in the tank for 2 weeks and that normally does the job.

 

[Firestorm_1976]

Thank you so much, Colin!

 

[GaryE]

The fish at the store have also been recently shipped. It's not really different - a matter of numbers. They probably were farmed in Asia, shipped to Florida, distributed via shipping to sellers...

I would consider treating for nematodes/worms, and nothing else unless the fish show up obviously sick.

 

[Firestorm_1976]

Thank you so much, Gary!

 

[Firestorm_1976]

Fish from both sellers is scheduled to arrive tomorrow, and I am freaking out! I went ahead and set up two QT tanks (10 gal for two swords from one seller and 20 gal long for four swords from the other seller). I do still have a question about salt: Do you add aquarium salt (and if yes, then how much) when quarantining new swordtails, received via mail? I can't ask the sellers as communication isn't easy with either one.

 

[GaryE]

Salt is a useful chemical, if you know what you're using it for. If you haven't even seen the fish yet, you can't use it to treat anything.

You should expect the fish to arrive healthy. You quarantine to confirm that, and treat with well targeted meds if you see something worth treating. Otherwise, you are just stressing the fish for no reason.

 

[Firestorm_1976]

Thank you, Gary! I was just thinking that a standard 1 tbsp per 5 gal is likely to be beneficial (at least, usually) to livebearers. Or is it not the case? Thanks again!

 

[Firestorm_1976]

One last question, if I may: What should I expect as far as the shape that shipped fish usually arrive in? Will they likely look very stressed out with clamped fins and everything? Or do they normally look pretty ok? Thanks so much again!

 

[Colin_T]

If the fish are in good health and clean water, they should look normal when put in the tank, although they will be stressed and might hide for the first few hours or days. However, if they are going into a well set up aquarium, they don't normally hide and will start acting normally within minutes of being added to the tank.

You can test the water they come in after getting the fish into the tank. Test it for pH and ammonia and this can offer some information about how the fish will feel. If there is a high ammonia level in the water in the bags, the fish could get sick. If there is no or very low ammonia levels in the water in the bags, the fish are less likely to get sick.

Sick fish will usually breath more rapidly, might hide in a corner or under plants, might have clamped fins or a creamy, white film or patches over part or all of the body. Any fish with red patches or sores needs to be monitored and probably treated.

When you get the fish, photograph the bags if there are any dead or sick fish in them. Most suppliers will want proof of sick fish and a picture of the sealed bag with all the fish in is sufficient.

After 24 hours or earlier if need be, you can photograph any fish that appears sick and post it here for us to check.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

EM does not kill the cycle.

Do not treat for what you do not know you have,

Rid Ich has both formalin and malachite green- strong stuff. Use on it own or pick a different Ich med.

Two things about shipped fish. Do not acclimate them, open the bag, pour the water and fish through a net, then put the fish into the tank you have for them. If you need to know why you should do it this way I am happy to explain it. I receive almost all of my fish shipped to me, some from1/2 way around the world. I also ship fish but only w/i the USA not including Hawaii.

Bear in mind that shipped fish have been in the dark for some time. So when you get them and open the box, it is similar o when your lights go on in the morning. It can startle the fish. Many fish may fadewhen they sleep and may do the same if stressed.

I usually turn of the tank light before I add the fish but will turn it back on 30 min. to an hour later. I also want to feed the fish fairly soon which goes against what some advise. But A good shipper purgers the fish before shipping. The goal is to reduce or eliminate the fish pooping in the bag in transit. So the fish is not fed for a day or two prior to shipping. It is hungry when it arrives.

The above assume the fish are coming during the day. However, I have done Airport to Airport shipping and picked up a box a fish at 10:45 pm and gotten home with them not long before midnight. In that case I just plop and drop them and do not feed unless they are bottom feeders and normally can eat in the dark. The I will put in sinking food for them. I do not turn on a tank light for nigh time arrivals. I consider room light sufficient for mid/upper water swimmers to find a place to hide for the night if they have at least 5-10 minutes to poke around a tank before lights out.

Most of the above is my way and not the only way. Some of it is also the best way imo- the plop and drop w/o acclimating is one such thing.

 

[Firestorm_1976]

Thank you so much, Colin and TwoTankAmin! Yes, I will not drip acclimate; will just float the closed bags for about 30 min and then transfer into the QT tank d/t CO2-pH-ammonia in the shipping bags.
I am still grappling with a question on whether I should add aquarium salt (the standard 1 tbsp per 5 gal) for them during the quarantine? After the QT is over (I usually QT fish that looks healthy for 2 months), they will be going to a heavily planted tank (so definitely, no salt in the display tank). But I will have plenty of time to gradually lower the salinity of the water over the QT period. So, might be beneficial to add salt at first?
My two QT tanks that I got set up for them do not have plants, so salt wouldn't be an issue (no LED lights either, I figured room light and some light from the window should be sufficient).
Yes, I did notice that a well-known company recommends using trio meds routinely (one of which is Fritz Maracyn, which is really just erythromycin--a cycle killing antibiotic which, in my understanding, might be the least effective antibiotic for most fish diseases), the other one is an equivalent of API General Cure (praziquantel + metronidazole) and an ich medication (formaldehyde+methanol+malachite green chloride) all together while not feeding the already pre-starved fish for one week. I definitely am not an expert in fish (this is my first time receiving shipped fish despite being on the hobby--on and off--since 1992), but I am not a newbie to science, healthcare and dietetics either, and these recommendations do not make much sense to me. Why to use least effective (while also being cycle-damaging) antibiotic routinely, since such practice will inevitably create more antibiotic resistant strains. Why to use the second medication with another antibiotic instead of just Hikari PraziPro (that only has the anti-parasitic part, praziquantel). And most importantly, why to starve already starved fish for a week? How is that going to help their immune system? Finally, why they stopped using Fritz Expel-P in the trio since this is the only medication that would help ruling out the most dreaded Camallanus worms. Many questions there...

 

[Colin_T]

you don't add salt or any medication (except dewormer) unless the fish have a disease.