New 5.5 Gallon Dwarf Puffer Tank

PH/Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate

Day 1.....7.8/4.0/1.0/5.0
Day 2.....7.8/2.0/5.0/20.0
Day 3.....7.8/ 0 /5+ /20.0

Ammonia at zero and Nitrite spiked (went immediately purple). I'm going to add 10 drops of ammonia and retest to see what the reading is. I think I may of added to much in the beginning.
 
10 drops took it to an easily identifiable 4 ppm.

Just to make sure I have this right I still continue to check every 24 hours and redose the ammonia to 4ppm everytime it reaches zero until I get a zero Ammonia & Nitrite reading. Once that happens start checking it every 12 hours, once it processes both in 12 hours it's done, right? What kind of time frame should I be looking at?
 
Right, once ammonia begins to drop quickly, you will usually be adding a new dose every day at the add-hour. Once you come out of the nitrite spike, your 24 hour test will show a few days of various lower nitrite readings and then zero. You are correct, at this point you are finally forced to add in 12 hour tests in addition to the 24 hour one (many can't help their curiosity and have been doing 12 hour tests sooner than this but they don't do you a lot of good until this point.) Typically the 12 hour nitrite test will still show a number but eventually you'll finally get double-zeros at 12 hours (by which I mean both ammonia and nitrite (note that either one can seem to "stick" at a very low number prior to the double-zero point.) At that point you get to start your "qualifying week."

~~waterdrop~~
 
...At that point you get to start your "qualifying week."

~~waterdrop~~

Care to explain that one. I don't recall seeing that term in my research.

I also noticed that you were very noncommittal on the time frame question. The reason I'm asking is I have more live plants that were special ordered and will be at the suppliers on Friday. They will probably ship out on the 16th or I may be able to stall them until the 23rd. If you don't think it will be ready I guess I could always plant them in the 10 gal temporarily.
 
Yes, we've had the "qualifying week" thing going for a year or two here in the forum. Basically, the "ending point" of a fishless cycle has always had a bit of controversy to it in that some people think you should wait for double-zeros to happen at 8 or even 6 hours after ammonia has been added, rather than the longer 12 hours and still others (usually beginners with little experience in fishless cycles) think you can just end it when double-zeros are coming at 18 or 20 hours.

What Miss Wiggle and BTT and I found was that if we had a little "system" where we wait until the fishless cycler gets the very first time of double-zeros in 12 hours (ie. you do your normal ammonia dose up to 5ppm (must be 5ppm) and both ammonia and nitrite(NO2) have dropped to true zero ppm within 12 hours or less) and when they get that it signifies that they can start their "qualifying week." The qualifying week was just meant as a way to "finish out the week" (hopefully the better part of a week at least) until the weekend of the "big water change and getting of fish." Anyway, the point is to "qualify" the biofilter by watching it repeat the double-zeros all week. We found right away that this was a great test. It forks the fishless cycles in two directions: if the biofilter is not really ready it will mess up. If the biofilter is ready it will be rock solid at its task all week.

Its also during the qualifying week that you usually scope out the LFS(s) and finalize your plans for the first stocking after the Big Water Change.

OK, TIME, well, there's the problem. Fishless cycles are wildly unpredictable and when you put MM in, they get even more unpredictable but usually quicker. Standard fishless cycles range between 3 weeks and 3 months. Good MM fishless cycles can take as little as a week or two, but they are truly unpredictable about that.

Putting in plants, John, will not disturb your fishless cycle necessarily except to possibly make things more confusing if its a large mass of plants and it eats most of the ammonia and NO3, which they can sometimes do if they start growing successfully. For expensive plants people sometimes worry that the fishless cycle might get too much algae on them or that the high ammonia might damage the plants. In the case of an MM cycle that's "taking" I'd not think those things would be a problem because the time involved would hopefully be too short.

~~waterdrop~~
 
I remember reading that thread. I was able to follow along pretty good until that poster went crazy with the Excel spreadsheet and was trying to figure out the volume of ammonia produced by type of fish based on their size. My eyes kind of glazed over reading that.

In regards to that thread and for sake of conversation how much would the planned stocking of the tank effect all this. My tank is being cycled for one fish. One very tiny, albeit very messy, fish. Is it even possible for one fish to produce 4-5ppm of ammonia in 24 hrs, let alone 12 hrs? If I understand things correctly the bacteria in the filter will support the ammonia produced in the tank. If it is "conditioned" to handle 5 ppm and once the fish is introduced and the bio-load is actually only 1 ppm the excess bacteria dies off, correct? So with that said am I wasting time preparing the filter for a bio-load that will never be needed?

Don't worry I still plan to continue the cycle like it has been tested previously because I know that people much smarter than me have spent a lot of time perfecting it. I mainly brought it up to help me understand the whole process.

As far as the plants go I'll wait until it's fully cycled. I'll try to delay the shipment if I can but if not I'll just plant them in the 10.

I do tonight's readings after House.
 
PH/Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate

Day 1.....7.8/4.0/1.0/5.0
Day 2.....7.8/2.0/5.0/20.0
Day 3.....7.8/ 0 /5+ /20.0.....dosed to 4ppm
Day 4.....7.4/ 0 /5+ /5.0 .....dosed to 4ppm

Does this look normal?, why would my PH drop?
 
<...> If I understand things correctly the bacteria in the filter will support the ammonia produced in the tank. If it is "conditioned" to handle 5 ppm and once the fish is introduced and the bio-load is actually only 1 ppm the excess bacteria dies off, correct? So with that said am I wasting time preparing the filter for a bio-load that will never be needed?

<...>
Hi John, Weird, I ended up answering variations of that question 4 times or so yesterday. Here's one of those posts:

Qualifying Week

Now, with that having been said, I will add that there have indeed been a few times when someone was having the "sticking problem" (that's where a trace or 0.25 or so of either toxin keeps showing up on and on in the third phase and you begin to wonder if its a color interpretation thing or something like that.) Well, if we -know- they will understock (and here again, you would be one of these cases.. you have to realize that with many beginners we also have to worry that they will get to the LFS and come home with a lot of extra fish despite what they claim beforehand.. so that's another contingency the good process helps with) then we sometimes cut short and just have them watch for potential fish-in cycling conditions after they get the fish.

WD
 
Okay. So it does look like I have the general idea correct. Now as far as the PH drop goes, is that normal?
 
Totally normal. The whole reason we fret over pH all during a fishless cycle is because one of the major things that cycling does is drive down the pH! Wherever you have nitrite and nitrate ions in water, you're also going to get a small percentage of nitric acid and since its such a stong acid, it will drive the pH down unless there are enough buffering factors to counteract. Those of us that have really soft water are more likely to become familiar with KH and GH measurements. A KH measurement is the definitive way to know about the buffering in the aquarium and to be able to predict what's likely to happen to pH. KH is a measure of Carbonate Hardness (aka Temporary Hardness) but in our aquarium KH kits what really gets measured is Total Alkalinity, which is an almost identical analogue to Carbonate Hardness in freshwater systems like ours.

So as the cycle progresses, more and more nitrate builds up in the water, with its associated fraction of nitric acid and the acidity gets neutralized by whatever amount of buffer you happen to have. If your buffer is low (low KH value) then the abliity of your water to resist a pH drop will be low. If your KH is high, your pH might never drop despite the addition of some acids. When the pH drops at a fairly quick rate (which is what it does, it sits around but then drops rather quickly) and passes pH=6.2, the nitrogen cycle will stall out. At pH=6.0 it will stop. Its a bit of a shock effect on the bacteria. Eventually they will recover and can slowly operate in an acidic environment, but their activity is greatly reduced.

Don't let all the chemistry talk from me make you think you have to test for pH or will have problems. In most cases a simple water change will bring in enough tap water (that is both at a higher pH and also refreshes the buffer) that cycling activity will be restored. An additional tip is that deep gravel cleaning during the out-siphon is an important part of getting a higher percentage of the nitric acid out along with other nitrogen compounds. This is what's behind my occasional recommendations to do a large water change during fishless cycling.

~~waterdrop~~
 
Thanks. I understood some of what you said. :lol:

I'm just use to seeing consistent numbers so all this jumping around has me nervous.
 
PH/Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate

Day 1.....7.8/4.0/1.0/5.0
Day 2.....7.8/2.0/5.0/20.0
Day 3.....7.8/ 0 /5+ /20.0.....dosed to 4ppm
Day 4.....7.4/ 0 /5+ /5.0 .....dosed to 4ppm
Day 5.....7.4/ 0 /5+ /5.0 .....dosed to 4ppm
 
PH/Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate

Day 1.....7.8/4.0/1.0/5.0
Day 2.....7.8/2.0/5.0/20.0
Day 3.....7.8/ 0 /5+ /20.0.....dosed to 4ppm
Day 4.....7.4/ 0 /5+ /5.0 .....dosed to 4ppm
Day 5.....7.4/ 0 /5+ /5.0 .....dosed to 4ppm
Day 6.....7.4/ 0 /5+ /40.0.....dosed to 4ppm
 
Even though your nitrite kit can't see a difference in nitrite, it may be that your N-Bacs are getting more numerous and lowering the nitrite a bit more since the nitrate(NO3) seems to be rising a bit (or at least has looked higher on this snapshot.) WD
 
Yep, you called it.

PH/Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate

Day 1.....7.8/4.0/1.0/5.0
Day 2.....7.8/2.0/5.0/20.0
Day 3.....7.8/ 0 /5+ /20.0.....dosed to 4ppm
Day 4.....7.4/ 0 /5+ /5.0 .....dosed to 4ppm
Day 5.....7.4/ 0 /5+ /5.0 .....dosed to 4ppm
Day 6.....7.4/ 0 /5+ /40.0.....dosed to 4ppm
Day 7.....7.4/ 0 /0.5/40-80....dosed to 4ppm
 

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