Need Some Help!

[Meggie :)]

Hey everyone!

So I still have that 50 u.s. Gallon tank sitting around...was planning to use it for a saltwater, but was having issues finding a sump that fit into the awkwardly sized cabinet...sooo, I'm doing it freshwater. Funnily enough it was my mom who said "fifty gallons is a bit small for a saltwater...how about we set up the fifty as a freshwater planted...with the co2 and all!...and put one of your bettas in there. Once we find out everything that's going on (business, if we are moving, etc) we can buy a much bigger one for your saltwater! (I would break down the two 5.5 gallons, move one betta to the fifty gallon, move the other to my planted ten gallon, and move the ten gallon fish to the fifty.....phew! Confusing, I know!) I think her ultimate goal is to just have a few large tanks instead of a billion little ones I want a full on planted tank...like with carpeting plants and all...I want it to be a stunner! Just need a bit of help first...I will be coming back for more questions later, but I just have a few for now

1. I think I am getting an eheim canister filter....but which one should I get?

2. Which co2 system do you suggest?

3. Any other suggestions and tips you could lend me?

Thank you all! I would just hate to set this whole thing up and see it die!
Meg

 

[hensonc4098]

The more flow the better in a planted co2 setup really. Don't be scared to go even 10-15x your tank volume in litres per hour. The eheims are a bit more expensive, but I've used one for the past few years on a tank and it seems ok.
There are really 2 options with co2 - liquid co2 which means dosing every day or pressurised co2 which you either switch on and off yourself or have one with a solenoid on a timer like your lights. DIY co2 isn't an option on a tank of that size - it becomes impossible to get anywhere near the levels needed.
Pressurised co2 systems are often quite pricey, as you'll need something fairly large on a tank that size. Smaller pre made co2 systems are fine on small tanks, but won't provide enough co2 for a larger tank, as well as going through a lot of expensive co2 canisters. One option that you could look at is using a fire extinguisher co2 system. This requires you buying certain parts yourself and modifying slighting a co2 fire extinguisher to provide for your tank, but is commonly done and works out a lot cheaper than pressurised systems. If you look in the PARC pinned topic in this section then you'll find a couple of good guides with pictures on how to set up a fire extinguisher co2 system. There are also many other guides online that you can look at.
With the setup that you are planning, you will need to dose fertilisers regularly, probably every day depending on what you end up doing with the tank. Also, light is a key factor in high tech setups. Too much light and you'll end up with algae, too little and any red plants you have will lose their colour and all growth will be slowed.

 

[Meggie :)]

Thank you so much! I forgot to mention that I bought good substrate too...for the base I have a powersand blend which has:
Powersand s - bacter 100
Clean super - tourmaline BC
Penac P - Penac W
And for the substrate I have ADA nature aquarium aqua soil..

Fertilizers I already have pferts: phosphorus, micros, potassium, nitrogen liquid fertilizers

I am willing to spen the extra money on a pressurized co2 system (I don't want to do just the liquid co2...and I probably shouldn't trust myself with the DIY one either ) ...I just don't know where to start in buying one.. (brand, size, etc...)

And that's one of the things I forgot! What lighting do you suggest?

And for the filter, which model would you suggest for this tank? (I will have a betta in this tank, so I don't want the flow to be TOO strong for him, but I don't want it not strong enough

Thank you so much for your help!
Meg

 

[hensonc4098]

Substrate and ferts seem good so far.

Not sure on best co2 system to use really. Probably your best option there is to look at some of the journals people have made using pressurised co2 and see how theirs is.

Lighting will likely be t5s in a tank of that size. I would start to try and get about 2wpg of t5 lighting over the tank to begin with, and then see how things go. Too much light is a cause of algae, amongst other factors. 2wpg is a safe medium to start with.

The beta makes it slightly difficult tbh. You're gonna want a LOT of flow to push all the co2 about the tank which will be in little micro bubbles. If it were me, I would weigh up putting the beta elsewhere if you really want this to be properly high tech. I have seen a couple of people manage to keep betas in high tech setups, but the majority otherwise have found that they struggle too much with the flow.

With filtration, something like a tetratec ex1200 would be a good starting point, possibly with a powerhead to give you more flow when the co2 is on. Not sure what exactly is available in the US with regards to other brands etc, but I'm sure someone here will be able to help you out there

 

[Meggie :)]

Thank you so much for your help! As for the betta, one of my two bettas is definitely going in there...that's the reason my mom wanted me to set this up in the first place, so we can break down all the little tanks hehe but i can see if either one of those bettas is okay with a little more flow...yesterday I saw my king betta (shorter fins...the other one is a half-moon betta) sitting in front of his filter haha

And you do think I should get a powerhead? What powerhead do you suggest? Just to help spread the co2 around? Even with the flow there will be plenty of places for my betta to hang without being blown around...he's got shorter fins and he is about twice the size of normal bettas so maybe he will be okay...

For the filter, how many gph should it have for this tank? That will help me figure out which eheim canister filter to get...ive heard that its one of the better ones over here...a bit more expensive but well worth it Do planted tanks really have a lot of flow? I don't want everything always look like it's beng violently thrown around by the current haha

I think I will have frog bit floating around up top so maybe that will help a bit with the intensity of the light? I don't mind if the light is a bit expensive either...I want to start things off right

I will take a look around the journals for the co2

I am so worried that this tank won't turn out nice! I don't want it to just be another planted tank that looks like a newbie just tossed everything in...I want people to look at it and just think "wow"....my head is spinning with everything for this tank!

Thank you so much!
Meg

 

[hensonc4098]

If it's a plakat type beta then he should be ok - the long finned varieties that tend to struggle.

I would look at getting a powerhead and putting it over the top of your co2 diffuser. Then you have your co2 on a timer so that it comes on 2 hours before your lights come on, and then the co2 goes off 1 hour before your lights do. You then connect the powerhead to the same timer as the co2 so that it is on at the same time as the co2 to push it around the tank while it's on.

Your other option of course is to get an in line diffuser, also sometimes called an atomiser. It attaches to the outlet from your filter so you don't need a co2 diffuser actually inside the fish tank. If you were to do this, I wouldn't get a powerhead straight away, but wait and see how the co2 makes it around the tank first. You can do this by physically looking at the tank as you will be able to see the tiny co2 bubbles, and by positioning your drop checker in different places to monitor co2 levels around the tank.

For the filter, I would look at something big, that's going to give you about 10x your tank volume in litres per hour. Either that or 2 smaller ones. Not sure how that figures in gallons though, sorry. They do have a lot of flow. If you look on youtube for high tech planted tanks you'll see that all the plants are swaying in the current. If you see any videos where the plants aren't swaying, it'll be because the person has switched off the filters for the purpose of the video. This is what you want in a high tech planted. If any plants aren't swaying, it means they are in a "dead spot" and won't be receiving the amount of co2 and ferts they need for good growth. Have a look at this video then you'll see what I mean. All the plants are gently swaying in the current.

I would wait and see how the light is on the tank. For high tech, you don't want to be cutting out light if you can help it. If you get algae, you up your co2 and/or ferts to increase the balance, but lowering your light with floating plants will cause any red plants to lose their colour.

You're doing all the right things though in planning everything beforehand. The next (FUN!) part is looking at what plants you would like to put in and plan the arrangement. The best tanks have had a lot of planning put into them of what plants should go where and next to what other plants. To give an idea, you want plants that contrast each other beside one another, i.e. different colours, leaf shapes etc. Also bear in mind what height the plants will grow to, so that you get a tiered finish to the tank without having to prune out the mid ground drastically to have any hope of seeing the background!

 

[Meggie :)]

Wow, you have been so helpful! Thank you so much!

The betta is a plakat

For the filter, would it be possible to get one good powerful one and divide the output (?) into two? So that the flow is coming out on either side of the tank... To make sure that there is good flow on either side of the tank? I don't know if this would work (or if it makes any sense)...I have no experience with externals! Haha

I am so nervous about setting this up, as I have no experience picturing in my head what its going to look like when everything grows out...I'll want to make it perfect from the getgo instead of planting it how it should be in the beginning so that it looks perfect in the end...I don't want this tank just to look 'okay'...and I don't even know what kind of wood I want, if I should get the seiryu rocks for around the wood, too...I just have absolutely no idea!

Still trying to figure out the whole co2 process...my brain is having a problem wrapping around everything with all this research I've been doing hah

I see what you mean about the flow now

Is this a good place to ask about your suggestions for stocking this tank?

Can't thank you enough!
Meg

 

[hensonc4098]

No problems

I haven't heard of splitting the filter outlet. I wouldn't if it were me since you would be opening yourself up to potential leaks. I would try a large external with the spray bar to begin with and see how the flow is with that. If you find you need more flow, power heads aren't too expensive if you shop around, even get one second hand from a marine setup as long as you wash it out well

Have a look about on google, the forum here and even the ADA aquascaping contest. It would be unrealistic to try and replicate some of their tanks since they have years of experience, but I have found it useful in the past for visualising scapes and also for seeing plants that I like the look of, since they have to list all the plants that they use.

Another thing that I use for choosing plants is the green machine's website. Although it is a UK website, so won't be any use for you ordering plants, it has a good selection of plants with clear categories and good information about each kind of plant. The main picture of the plant is an artists illustration, but if you click on a plant then there will normally be pictures of the plant in an aquarium setting to let you see how it looks in situ.

Co2 is a bit hard to try and get your head around. The main setup is this:

1. Firstly you have your gas canister/cylinder which will supply your co2
2. The next thing is your regulator. This attaches onto your canister. There are several different kinds. Some will just be a basic attachment to the cylinder with nothing else on, whereas others will have some of the things I am going to mention built into them.
3. Needle valve. This allows you to adjust the amount of co2 that can flow out of the canister, and this is what you will adjust to alter co2 levels overall. You will want this to be built into your regulator as separate needle valves become a hassle.
4. Solenoid. This plugs into a timer like your lights so that the co2 will switch on and off at predetermined times, giving you consistent co2 levels from day to day. Some regulators also have this built in, or you can buy one separately.
5. Bubble Checker. This contains a small amount of liquid that allows you to see how many bubbles per second the canister is releasing. Generally you want about 3 bubbles per second, but the main gauge is to have your drop checker at the correct colour (more about that in a minute) and use your bubble counter as a secondary check.
6. Non-return valve. This is to stop water from the aquarium seeping back towards the co2 canister when it is not on. This is very unlikely to damage the equipment, but causes the co2 to be slower in starting up, meaning that it takes longer to reach the correct co2 level.
7. Diffuser. The main kind of diffuser used in aquariums are the glass cup-like diffusers which work by pushing the gas through a ceramic disk to produce very fine bubbles. Another kind are ladder diffusers, in which you see the bubble working its way through the ladder. For ladder diffusers, you don't need a bubble counter too, since you can see the bubbles passing through the ladder. There is also the option of using an inline diffuser as I mentioned before that fits onto the outlet from your filter.
8. Drop checker. This is the strange shaped bulb like glassware that you see with a small amount of normally green liquid inside. The liquid is an indicator of the amount of co2 dissolved in the water. The ideal colour for when the co2 is on is the green colour. Blue indicates too little co2 and yellow indicates too much. Your drop checker is you main method of measuring co2 levels within the tank.

The main things to remember with co2 are to use co2 specific tubing (normal air tubing is slightly porous and will let the co2 out) and to try your drop checker in various parts of the tank to make sure the co2 is being distributed evenly.

Stocking is a big question What fish do you like? Rhyme them off and we'll see what's suitable with what, what's compatible and what's not etc. It's about what you like in the tank, not what I like

 

[Meggie :)]

Thank you so much! That really did help with my understanding of co2! What are the times during the day that the co2 would be turned on? Like how many hours at a time? Or does it depend? And one more thing: are there any good co2 kits you can recommend, or do you recommend buying all these separately?

For the aquascaping, I still don't even know what kind of look I want! I think it will be a bit easier to plan out (with lots of help from he of course) as soon as I get my wood/rocks, but I don't even know what kind to look out for...like shape, size, quanitity, everything! Haha well the guy at the store I went to the other day (unfortunately over an hour away) has done/does some athletes' tanks...and the most beautiful ones in the store were done by him...wonder how expensive it would be for him to come and do mine man I loved that store, though! Every fish and plant (and coral) was extremely healthy, they had fish there that I dont see in chain stores...they had all their bettas in the community tanks, 100% healthy and happy, kept their schooling fish in schools as they should be, had a very large variety of amazing plants to choose from that I only see online, gave awesome advice (he was actually helping me by giving me the cheapest ways to go haha)...and he was SO nice...too bad it's so far away

And for the fish, well my betta, what about a large group of schooling fish? Like i love the blue eye rainbows (also called rice fish I think)...I like neon tetras too....I'm open to anything really! Oh and DEFINATELY shrimp! But I do have, however, some fish that I need to move in there from my ten gallon...like a balloon Molly (like half-grown) four shrimp, three pygmy cories I can maybe move over...what would you put in there?

Thanks so much!
Meg

 

[hensonc4098]

Co2 should come on 2 hours before your lights come on, then go off 1 hour before the lights go off. This means that the co2 is built up to the correct level for the lights switching on (i.e. your plants photosynthesising period) and then is back to a lower level for lights off, when the plants aren't going to be using any of it.

Some people choose to use a pre made setup like this that was recommended by ukaps, however I have found a lot of people choose to use fire extinguishers just through cost (about £100 to set up vs. JBLs £200, and then you need to buy new canisters - FEs you'll get free).

Also have a look here at this guide to high tech tanks. It's a couple of years old, so the JBL system they recommend has now been replaced with the one I've linked. Opinions also vary about substrate. There they pretty much say to use ADA, full stop. Now, the value of a substrate is its capacity to absorb nutrients, so that if there is a lack of nutrients in the water for whatever reason, they can release their stored nutrients again back into the water column for the plants. The ADA soils have nutrients already absorbed into them, but you can do it yourself for a lot cheaper. To do this, you would use a cat litter substrate, one made of low dust clay (make sure you rinse it thoroughly beforehand though as it will turn your water brown for weeks if you don't) and then dose fertilisers through your fish less cycle. This means that during this time, the substrate will absorb nutrients and become nutritious for planting in.

If the guy at the store seems to be helpful and doesn't mind you doing this, play with the wood and rocks in the store. Ask if there's somewhere you can sit out of the way of his other customers and just mess around for a while with different pieces of wood and rock. Take a tape measure with you and then you can visualise your tank size, as well as a camera or camera phone to snap a picture that you can replicate once you get the wood home. I have done this before, you do feel a bit stupid, but it's worthwhile when you get it in the tank and you haven't bought pieces you don't need, or find yourself short!

To help you decide a "genre" of scape, google these types and see which you like out of them:

• Igwami Aquascape (Rocks centre of scape, everything else compliments)
• Nature Aquarium (Mixture of wood and plants - think Takashi Amano)
• Jungle Aquascape (Dense planting - "wild" appearance)
• Dutch Aquascape (Very uniform and neat planting with variation of colours and leaf types)

If you're wanting to move the cories, keep an eye on them that they don't uproot plants. High tech plants like HC cuba, hairgrass and glosso takes an age to plant and a second to uproot, equalling an unhappy you. Maybe add them once the plants are rooted if you want them in there.

Neons are great fish in scapes as they are colourful, cheap, non destructive and nice and small. You could have a huge shoal in there. The only thing people don't like about neons is that they don't swim around much. They more "hover" in one spot. The other thing you have to bear in mind is that your beta might pick fights with neons since they are colourful and slow. Rice fish are different to what I know, I think you mean Pseudomugil furcatus - the blue-eyed forktail? They are also nice and small fish that you could keep a large group of. I'm unsure of their shoaling habits though, or if they all just dither about everywhere.

Other suggestions of shoaling species that I think would look nice are:

• Rummynose Tetras
• Columbian Tetras
• Emperor Tetras
• Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish
• Congo Tetras
• Harlequins (or similar looking but slightly smaller Epsei or Hengeli Rasbora)
• Threadfin Rainbowfish
• Penguin Tetras

There are probably loads more, but I just can't think off the top of my head

 

[Meggie :)]

Wow thank you! How many schooling fish do you think I could get? And I think I will hold off on adding my existing cories then (or not add them at all!) ...my betta that will be going in there shouldn't pick on them. (I know that cories do best in groups of 6+ but 3 died when I had an issue with an unknown parasite, still don't know what it was, from an lfs that wiped out most of my tank)....

When you do the fire extinguisher co2 system, is it more unstable or harder to figure out? And it's FREE to refill? When you run out, do you just get a new FE and hook it back up to all the equipment?

How long do you recommend having the lights on? I heard 6-8 hours is the best, but how long exactly?

As for stocking, yesi did mean the blue eye fork tails haha do you think I should do like a betta, one large schooling group, and shrimp? Or are there other fish you would put in there? And what shrimp do you like the best? I've had ghost, cherry, amano....and I love them all!

I will look around at those different scapes...i have been browsing for days on end

Thanks again for all your help!
Meg

 

[hensonc4098]

The fire extinguisher is basically the same as any other canister, you just unscrew the horn of the FE and screw your regulator on. They don't refill them for free, what happens is once a fire extinguisher is over 10 years old, to be kept legally in an business area or whatever, it has to be refurbished. This is not cost effective and so they are just thrown out and replaced with new ones. So technically you're getting a 10 year old extinguisher, but that has never been used. Once it runs out, you just throw it away (take it to a dump) and get a new one. Since they are just throwing them out anyway, you can usually get them very cheap or free.

If you're wanting to have the focus mostly on the scape, I would go for just one large shoal of a single species. The species that I mentioned vary in size, but you could have for example about 50 smaller tetras like rummy nose tetras or 25 larger ones like congo tetras. If your focus is more on the fish, you can split into 2 or 3 separate smaller shoals. I'm planning a new 180l tank and the way I am planning my shoaling species is on the height they like to swim in. For example, emperors will stay nearer the surface, harlequins will stay middle height and rummys will stay lower. This means that each of the shoals has their own space.

Once the tank is settled and the plants are rooted, if you were wanting to add the cories, you could up their number to about 10, add about 5 ottos to keep things tidy, and I would recommend amano shrimp in a planted scape - this is because they won't breed and end up crawling with them, since they will be very hard to catch in a heavily planted tank, and they are definite hard workers as far as algae control is concerned.

I would probably go for about 7 hours to begin with and then increase to 8 if everything is ok. If you are getting algae problems at 7 hours then you either need to up your co2 levels (although always go by the drop checker) or change/increase the flow in the tank. Often algae will appear in spots where there is decreased flow - dead spots - and so you will need to work to eradicate these.

 

[Meggie :)]

Thank you! And I don't know,i want to focus on both the fish and the scape Does the betta count as being upper, middle, or lower, or would he just count as all around? You don't think he would attac any of these fish, do you?

And I might just stick with the co2 that you buy? Idk I will ask my mama about that one, see what she prefers...

S you suggest getting a spray bar for the co2 and the canister filter?

 

[hensonc4098]

Bettas are kindof all round fish, but seen as you only have one in a tank of that size, I wouldn't worry about him He shouldn't attack any of the faster moving shoaling species - I would be a bit more wary with neons, but since they would all have room to get away from each other then you should be fine. Any of the ones that I suggested are pretty fast moving so they would just swim away if he was being silly

Yep, some people prefer the idea of getting a normal canister. Look at getting a welders co2 canister - then you can get it refilled pretty cheaply and easily at a welders yard Even if you want to buy a full setup to being with, you could always switch to a different canister once the first one runs out if it's going to be expensive to refill.

Not a spray bar for the co2, just the filter. The co2 either use a diffuser within the tank (glass cup like one like this or you do sometimes get ones that look like this) or use an inline diffuser (sometimes called an atomiser) which attaches onto the outlet from your filter so that by the time the water reaches the tank, the co2 is already dissolved in it. They look like this and in situ look like this. So the second link there is basically what your setup would be like with an inline diffuser/atomiser.

Hope that makes sense!

 

[Meggie :)]

Oh I like that inline diffuser! Seems to me that would be a great way of making sure the co2 makes it throughout the entire tank!

Are there any brands you would suggest for the regulator, bubble checker, needle valve, drop checker, etc?

Thank yo so much, It's actually making a it of sense now!
Meg