Mysterious Deaths

[cc_woman]

Tank size:90 gallons
pH:7.2-7.4(it fluctuates slightly)
ammonia:0
nitrite:0.3
nitrate:14
kH:130ppm
gH:Hard( I hardly read this because we found it would always be about the same)
tank temp:84

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior): Fish tend to swim more at the top and breath rapidly. They seem to lose some colour too due to stress. And of course, loss of appetite.

Volume and Frequency of water changes: Usually about 30% once a week.

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank:Flourish supplement for plants. Aquaclear filter with sponge, peat moss, and white cotton like filter media

Tank inhabitants:discus, angels, rams(used to have 3 different kinds) now only german blue females, kribensis, firemouth, black ghost knife, pictus catfish, bleeding heart tetras, zebra danios, cherry barbs, frontosas, blue acaras, paradise fish, ghost shrimp, dwarf frogs, dwarf pea puffers, and a CAE about 3"

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): Plants, like wysteria, brazilian sword, and a couple others but unsure of the name offhand. Plus 1 firemouth, and 2 kribensis to replace the ones we lost.

Exposure to chemicals:Not to my knowledge.

So here's the story. Our tank has been running for at least a few months now, all our fish have been completely healthy, and no signs of infection. Until about 2 weeks ago, they would start showing the signs of rapid breathing then die within a day or so. No one really picks on the other, except maybe conspecific aggression. We have tried removing them and placing them into quarantine, but to no avail. The only thing we have changed before they started dying, is getting a nutrafin natural plant system. We first tried using their mixture that came with it, but nothing happened within 2 days as indicated. So we dumped that concoction and made our own mix, filling with sugar to the first level, then using 1/2 teaspoon of yeast, then filling with warm water to the second level. We only have the one CO2 machine, so we know it cannot be from too much CO2. We also have a pretty well planted tank. This has been the only major change, and about 4-5 days later the fish started dying off. We have lost about 9 rams, 2 kribensis, 2 angels, and 1 discus on our way to losing another. Over $150 dollars in fish. I am so worried as I have no clue what could be going on with them. All our water parameters are so good, and we didn't have any trouble with any fish in there until now. If someone can give me any suggestions that would be great. And I turned the temp up to about 86, we put in extra airstones, disconnected the CO2, and changed 50% of the water all today. Not sure if any of this will help the fish, and we have also had the glass tops off for at least a few days now to allow more oxygen to be able to be dissolved into the water. I live in Alberta, Canada by the way.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

there's two things that spring to mind

1 - nitrite - this should always be 0, the reading of 0.3 is enough to kill fish, particularly sensitive ones like rams and discus. was the tank cycled before you added fish or did you cycle with fish?

2 - that's one hell of a fish list, there's incompatibility issues and fish that will get too big for your tank, can you please write out a list of exactly what you have now, how many of each species you have, and the numbers of each species you have lost.

 

[cc_woman]

I know that not all are compatible with each other. By the end of the year we will be buying another 280 gallon for our africans, so we will be moving some of the fish, like the frontosas into our other 90 gallon. And our dwarf puffers will be going into a 20 gallon in about a months time. All our fish are still relatively small, but I did know it was not such a smart idea mixing some, but my boyfriend would come home with fish when I wasn't around and just add whatever he wanted. I couldn't tell him no because they are also his tanks. We did try putting some pH down stuff in our aquarium, but it did only lower it by about .2, but not within a huge period of time. I check the pH morning before lights on and night before lights out. The biggest pH change we have seen within a days time is maybe 0.1, which I know is usually not a large enough amount to kill fish.

We have lost so far 2 angels, about 9 rams, 1 discus, 2 kribensis, 1 frontosa. I do observe my fishes behaviors quite often and have not found much aggression from one species to the next, just a bit inside fish of the same species. I really don't think it has anything to do with what types of species of fish we do have.

The list of fish we have now is 2 discus, 2 female german blue rams, 2 frontosa, 2 N. tretocephalus, 1 firemouth(John came home with him this past weekend), 4 bleeding heart tetras, 12 zebra danios, 10 cherry barbs, 1 paradise fish, 1 CAE, 1 black ghost knife, 1 pictus catfish, 2 blue acaras, 4 kribensis, 4 dwarf puffers, 3 angels, 4 ghost shrimp, and 2 dwarf frogs(surprised they are not dead yet). Some of these we did replace after the others died like some of the kribensis, a frontosa. For now all of our fish are still very small, the biggest being the firemouth at 3". I feed them twice a day, and only small amounts at a time. I measured the nitrites this morning, and they are at 0 again, they were about 0.3 about 4 days ago. But we are still losing fish, I put the charcoal back in the filter and added some salt as well to decrease any toxic effects of any kind of substance there might be. I added the charcoal back last night and the salt I put in yesterday afternoon with my water change. If you are thinking at all that I just don't know how to care for fish, and what can happen, you are wrong. If I could figure this out on my own, I would. We have a mixed african cichlid tank now for a whole year and only lost a couple fish. Besides that I have been doing significant research on the types of fish we have and water qualities, as I am currently taking my chemistry 30 course, and have a very good idea about water chemistry and all the fancy numbers and chemical equations involved. I have been in the fish hobby for at least 7 years, with not a single problem like this. I have checked all the possible diseases for tropical fish, which none of them seem to fit what is going on with my fish. I have been watching them very carefully lately and don't see any other signs except rapid breathing, and slight colour and appetite loss within a day or 2 of them dying. No bloating, no rapid movements, no signs of external infections, no abnormal bowl movements, they just stay in one spot. Oh and the only fish we added before the tank was fully cycled was the zebras, cherry barbs and bleeding heart tetras, which we only lost 1 cherry barb. They were in there for a few weeks, then I measured all parameters, the nitrates were finally rising and nitrites decreasing. So we added only a few fish at a time, about every 7-8 days or so. The rams were some of the first we had added, and they were so healthy up until a couple weeks ago.

 

[cc_woman]

Ok so I removed both the Neolamprologus tretocephalus and put them into the african cichlid tank, since it would suit their needs more than the other. I think the reason my bf wanted to have them in the community tank is because they looked alot like the frontosas.

 

[Davo86]

Any of these reasons could cause fish deaths

pH:7.2-7.4(it fluctuates slightly)

adding CO2 will reduce your ph, an unstable ph can result in a loss of fish

Fish tend to swim more at the top and breath rapidly. They seem to lose some colour too due to stress

sign that O2 levels are too low.

turned the temp up to about 86

a higher temperature actually reduces the amount of 02 in the water which would explain the gasping for air, especially combined with the added CO2 that has been added.

i know you say its not compatibility issues, but fast moving fish like danios and tetra and even the pictus can be enough to stress out larger delicate species like discus without even actively showing aggression.

Also i realise that the nitrite is back to 0 now but the level of 0.3 could easily have been a contributing factor of some of the fish deaths

Try moving your filter outlet to a level of a few inches above the waters surface so that the water makes quite a splash as it enters the tank, Also reset the temp back to normal, it does not sound like a disease is present in the tank so the high temp isn't really helping.

 

[cc_woman]

I know that higher temperatures causes less O2 in the water, which is why we have added extra airstones, and have kept the water lower to allow more surface movement, and also is why we removed the glass lids, to allow a better flow of O2 into the tank. I know the guy at a very reputable fish store said for the discus we should keep it at 86 but we have only been keeping it at 82 usually. So I will turn the temp back down. I also removed the CAE just now, he can go in with the africans as he can be aggressive sometimes. As well, it is when we got the CO2 system, when I started to check pH levels morning and night, and as I said, it only made about a 0.1 shift in a day from the thing. I have read in numerous places that a pH shift of 0.2 or less should not be enough to kill most fish. We also tried shutting our CO2 off at night by unscrewing the cap on the canister, but it still didn't seem to do much good. The CO2 system we have is made for UP to 20 gallons, and we have a 90 gallon, which is why excess CO2 should not be a huge problem in a well planted tank. Oh and I forgot to put on a list of lost fish one of our male paradise fish. I am just stumped. I am starting to think that maybe the silicon we used to repair the tank about 4 months ago, is somehow leaking toxic chemicals into the water. We used marina aquarium silicon along the bottom inside the tank where we were having problems with a leak. If it's not that, it must be some other chemical somehow making its way into the tank, I don't see any other explanation. But where and how it is getting in is beyond me. We have completely removed the whole CO2 system now for a few days now, and just today I noticed one ram starting to act differently. The thing is, alot of places I have read, said that tetras and such are compatible with things like angels and discus. So they must all be wrong then. And we rarely ever see the catfish, it is always hiding in the rock structure with the ghost knife and firemouth.

 

[Colin_T]

my first thoughts were of gill flukes or no oxygen. Gill flukes could have been introduced by one of the new fish and the combination of extra CO2, nitrite, overcrowding, mismatched fish, wrong water chemistry for half the fish and the gill flukes could quite easily be causing the problem. It could also be too much plant fertiliser or contaminated peat moss.
In the crowded conditions of a fish tank gill flukes can spread thru the entire fish population extremely rapidly. It could also be oodinium (whitespot).

You need to reduce the load on the tank, do more water changes, remove the peat and stop adding fertilisers, and reduce stress. Then see what happens.
Perhaps try treating with some Praziquantel to kill the flukes. Use 100mg or Praziquantel per 20 litres of tank water. Do a 50% water change using dechlorinated water with a similar temperature and PH to the tank. Repeat treatment and water change a week later.

 

[cc_woman]

We did have water softening pillows in until a week ago, could those have had anything to do with any of this? They seemed to actually raise the KH from about 120-130 instead of lowering it, they were in there for about a month, but I removed them since they were not doing any good. I have tried not to touch the pH by using any products since we started having the fish die off, but even then, the lowest the KH allowed it to get was 7.2 but only slowly would it rise back up to 7.4. And it has been at 7.4 for the last week and a half. I am looking into investing in an RO unit, rather than messing around trying to lower pH. Without the peat and natural driftwoods we have, the pH of our tap water is about 7.8. Which is why we want to lower it and try to maintain a lower pH of more neutral, so we can keep healthier discus and rams and such. I really don't think pH has anything to do with it, since we have been trying not to mess with it as much lately.

 

[cc_woman]

We have tried not to put anything extra like fertilizers in for the past week and haven't added anymore in the last 2 water changes. Besides we always follow the directions with things like that very carefully. Gill flukes maybe, but don't they usually show signs like rubbing against objects when they have these? We have had them before many times in our other tank and that was the usual behavior. Should I maybe put my UV sterilizer from the other tank into this one? I know that the tank is slightly over crowded, which is why I removed some of them today, and I am thinking of buying that 20 gallon this weekend and get an early start to remove the puffers, and maybe even put the frogs in there with them as well. There are no other external signs from what I can see other than slight loss of color in the affected fish, no bumps, no other weird colors like white, grey, or black patches. The peat is the stuff made by fluval, so if that is toxic that would be really bad for their reputation. But I will remove the peat right now thanks! Just in case I guess.

 

[Colin_T]

normally fish suffering from gill flukes just breathe heavily near the surface and have flared gills. The flared gills is more common in heavily infested fish. Loss of colour is common as the flukes are sucking the blood out of the fish and they start to suffer from anemia.
A UV steriliser might stop the parasites from getting worse but by the way the fish are gasping at the surface I would say it is already pretty bad.

To work out the volume of water
measure the Length x Width X Height in cm
divide by 1000
equals volume in litres.

When measuring the height, measure from the top of the gravel to the top of the water level. Remove any big rocks & wood before measuring the height.

The other thing it could be is poisoning of some sort. Maybe something got into the water change bucket and is leachng out during water changes.

 

[cc_woman]

Thanks, I will try the gill flukes meds. And yeah I know that the uv sterilizer will help kill parasites, which is why I thought about using it. The only bad thing is it will affect my plants, but right now, I could care less about them. We use the python syphon which hooks straight up to our tap. Maybe I should try getting a tester to test for other dissolved minerals and metals in my tap water. Although we do always condition it properly when adding any water. I removed the peat as well. So far one of our other discus has not died though it has shown the symptoms over the last few days. I think the water change I did yesterday may have saved it's life for now. Like I said I will try the meds, and I will keep you posted on how it goes. Thanks so much for your help, I never knew gill flukes could be that bad, usually when we get them they go away with a week of the UV being on.

 

[cc_woman]

And by the way, MOST of our fish have the same water needs that are in there right now, I just removed the ones that didn't. There were only a few species we had in there that had separate water needs. And also, most fish can adapt to the water in the area you live in, most pet stores don't use anything in their tanks to lower or raise things like pH KH and GH. And also the tank right now is NOT severely over stocked, most of our fish are still pretty small, and things like the ghost shrimp only add very small amounts to the bio load. We have an eheim 2250 canister filter plus an aquaclear 70 for it, so I very highly doubt the bio load has anything to do with it, and besides that I keep up with regular water changes and test the water parameters weekly at the very least.

 

[Colin_T]

A UV steriliser shouldn't affect the plants.

I think the python syphon is one of those gravel cleaners that attaches to the tap and fills at the same time as water drains from the tank. If so you are better off just draining water out and then refilling the tank with dechlorinated water. If you drain the tank, then refill it, you know exactly how much water has been removed and how much new water has gone in. It is also preferable to dechlorinate the new water before it goes into the tank. This eliminates the chance of free chlorine molecules damaging the fish before the conditioner does its job.
Try running your tap for a couple of minutes before you collect water for the fish tank. If there is copper leaching from the pipes it could be causing problems. By running the tap for a few minutes beforehand, you should be able to flush out the contaminated water and get cleaner water with less copper in it.

A UV steriliser will only kill the flukes and diseases in the water. It won't kill the ones on the fish. Fish can have gill flukes for years and not show any signs. However, when the flukes build up in numbers and other stress factors occur, the fish start to have problems.

Anyway, see how you go. Hopefully things will settle down soon

 

[Tolak]

Nitrites inhibit a fish's blood from processing O2 properly. This would appear to the eye as a low O2 level, which it is, as far as the fish are concerned. Nitrites in a mature tank when there is none present in your tap water indicate a problem with your nitrifying bacteria.

Do not ever trust your water supply. Municipal water companies are concerned with the health of human beings, they do not care a bit about any aquarium of fish. They will, when water supply quality dictates, jack up chlorine, chloramine, and buffers. With some supplies this is seasonal, some dependant on the weather, some a little of both. It pays to learn as much as you can about your water supplier, above & beyond the yearly water quality letter you may get.

So far you are adding a plant fertilizer, peat, pH reducing chemicals, and a water softening pillow. Anything you add to the tank water increases total dissolved solids, also known as conductivity if you are taking chem classes. Think of how your TDS has possibly risen by adding all these extras besides the usual feedings & waste production, which will also raise TDS.

I would go blank slate on this one, and take into account never trusting your water supplier. This means no additives besides your water conditioner. It also means doubling up on the conditioner, having no trust in your water supplier's concern for your fish. Increased chlorine, and especially chloramine can do a number on your nitrifying bacteria if enough water treatment is not added. Tetra Aquasafe or Seachem Prime are your top two conditioners, either one will take care of most anything the water company or your supply lines will add to your water. Increase the quantity & frequency of water changes, if you are doing 30% weekly bump it up to 50% twice weekly. This way you have plenty of fresh water, with only one thing added.

Your pH & hardness should not be a problem, I breed angels in 7.7, with hardness approaching 200. Discus actually do better in hard water as juvies, the mineral content helps with their growth. The only time this is a problem is when it comes to getting a good hatch rate from spawns. Unless you have wild caught discus I wouldn't worry about the ro water, domestic discus do fine in harder water with a higher pH. I have some wild caught angels growing out in my tap water atm, they are doing just fine.

The python doesn't remove and add water at the same time, it used water pressure to drain the tank, just like a waterbed fill & drain kit. Flip the lever & fill the tank once water is removed, it is a very good product. I use hoses to drain & fill my tanks, basically the same idea with a higher flow rate. Add your water conditioner before filling, and you won't have a problem with anything added to your water.

 

[cc_woman]

I would never try to clean and fill a 90 gallon fish tank with buckets. That would be alot of work and strain when I already have a bad back. The python really isn't the problem, and I start adding the conditioners almost as soon as the water starts flowing back in. I can always tell about how much water I have taken out, so therefore have to add back in by looking at the water levels. If I do a 50% water change, I put enough conditioner for about 50-55 gallons of water. I am searching for a cheap copper, CO2, and phosphate test kits right now. The thing is the rest of the hardier fish are fine, and all our fish in our other 3 tanks have never had any problems with the same water supply, or the tap it comes from.

And actually UV sterilizers can affect plant growth if on for long periods of time. They kill everything in the water, even beneficial bacteria. That is why they call them sterilizers, they clean every harmful and alot of useful molecules in the water.

We did have a nitrite spike a couple of months ago, but we fixed it with daily water changes and nitrite lowering chemicals. The spike occurred after the tank was cycled. Then I found the nitrites went up to 0.5 and with a water change that same day, they decreased to 0.3 by the next day. They were only high for a few days, and finally yesterday measured 0 again. As well I used some aquarium salts to help decrease the toxic effects of the high nitrite levels. It seems today, since we added something called Blackwater extract by tetra aqua, the discus who was healthy and the discus with symptoms perked up a bit. The black water helps to add other minerals and such that are not found in tap water, that are beneficial in having healthier fish like discus, angels, and rams.

Does anyone think it would be a good idea to keep the lights off on the tank for a few days or turn it on? The tank sits where there is some sunlight, but we usually close the blinds as for it not to hit the tank directly. But the rest of the room with the blinds half closed, gets sufficient light. What I am meaning by this gibberish, is that the plants might get a slight amount of natural sunlight, but the tank won't get enough that the plants won't take in the excess CO2. I am trying hard to keep CO2 levels at a minimum right now, and have more oxygen.

I guess eventually the water will run out of room for the TDS and no more solids will be able to absorbed or dissolved into the water. And yes I know all about electrical conductivity. I wonder if a salinity tester, for salt water aquariums, would detect metals like copper in the water. The only bad thing is most conductivity or meters that read total dissolved solids, are quite expensive. This is actually my second time in this chem course, the first time I got really sick near the end and missed a whole unit, so I was excused from writing my diploma for it. So being in it twice, I am understanding and taking in alot more.

Is Aqua plus by nutrafin a good conditioner? I have always used and trusted this brand myself, along with the cycle. I really like seachem products, and they seem to have a variety of things other companies don't provide.