My silent cycle....advice reqd.

[ClownLurch]

Cycle in 120L/31USG began 13 days ago but wasn’t fully planted at the time because I didn’t have all plants I wanted. I’ve added half a cap of flourish every four days and there’s three flourish root tabs also. The final plants were added six days ago. Heater at 26degrees from start.
Plants:
Moneywort
Ceratoperis Thalictroides x2
Taxiphyllum
Eleocharis
Salvina
Frogbit
Water Lettuce
Duckweed
Anacharis
Hornwort

Water test readings. API Test Kit.
Thurs 9/9/20 From Tap:
GH 19 (19 drops)
KH 14 (14 drops)
Ph low 7.2
Ph high 7.4 slightly lighter than chart.
Amm 0.25
Nitrate 10
Nitrite 0

After 24hrs standing. Fri 10/9/20:
GH 19
KH 14
Ph low 7.6
Ph high 8.2
Amm 0.25
Nitrate 5
Nitrite 0

From tank after 5 days Tues 14/9/20. Minutes after final planting:
GH 19
KH 14
Ph low 7.6
Ph high 8.2
Amm 0.25
Nitrate 10
Nitrite 2

From tank after 13 days Wed 22/7/20. Just now:
GH 19
Kh 14
Ph low 7.6
Ph high 8.2
Amm 0.25
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 2+? Difficult to judge to be honest.

Does any of that make sense?
Ive not changed water yet should I do it now? If so what %?

I’ll stop testing GH & KH now and the lower range ph until it drops.
Mrs Lurch thinks plants are growing but I’m not certain.
There’s a fair bit of dead leaves n roots that have finally settled on substrate from when I turned filter on which resulted in a bit of a shredding of floating plants. Tights over filters stopped that. I’m going to cyphon them up if water change is advised for today or not.
We’ve a bit of algae growth on glass probably as lights been on for 10-12 hrs per day so far. I’ve set Light to 8 hrs on a timer now and dropped temp from 26 down to 24.
Noticed stowaway snails who are all over the algae for first time yesterday approx 12 of which only 1 is bigger that 2mm. Also 7 little worms yesterday for the first time as well, approx 12mm (half of an inch). Can’t think of anything else to add!

So what’s my next move?

BTW I think a silent cycle subsection should be added to the Cycling section as tthe only info I’ve been able to gather on the subject on the forum has been from @Byron @Retired Viking @essjay @seangee @JuiceBox52 and other regulars advising on various threads. Some silent cycle related and some not.
This isn’t a criticism of the forum by the way in fact far from it as it’s easily the most helpful and informative I’ve found these last few months, I wouldn’t have stuck around otherwise.
I just think it’d be nice to have all silent cycle tips and recommendations such as best plants, temps, lighting times etc etc in one place. Thanks.

So......errrrh......apologies for posts length and....errrh.... what do I do next?

 

[seangee]

No need to keep testing GH and KH, they won't change. pH probably won't change either but check occasionally. You only need pH high. Your pH is 8.2 and the pH low only reads up to 7.6 so it will always read that.

Start getting into the routine of a weekly water change, at least 50% but preferably more.
Post a picture of the tank and someone will advise if there are enough plants to start adding fish. Using the silent cycle method you do need to add fish slowly. Choose your first group and buy all of those that you intend. You need to monitor your ammonia and nitrite daily and be prepared to do a large water change if needed. If after 2 weeks your readings have stayed at zero you are ready to add the next group - and repeat.

The reason there is no sticky for this is (I assume) that we have a lot of new members joining who regard one anubias and a moss ball as planted - and then suffer losses due to ammonia spikes. The fishless cycle method, using ammonia, guarantees results and allows you to add all your fish at once - but takes longer initially. So that is almost always the method we recommend for newcomers.

 

[ClownLurch]

Cheers Sean. So should I have been 50% water changing one week after starting silent cycle?

 

[seangee]

Its less important when you don't have livestock. Don't sweat it if you missed the first week

 

[ClownLurch]

Yeah. Cheers again.
I filled up direct from tap because of having no livestock. I’ll water change direct also until there’s fish in the allow it to stand for 24hrs.
Id thought I had to wait until noticeable growth before testing THEN start water changing and testing until nitrites and ammonia were zero.
It’s just a little thing that possibly won’t occur to experienced people and gets jammed into a newbies head even though it’s maybe obviously wrong!........and guess what....here’s another: What does zero Ammonia look like on the API colour chart or is the 0.25 colour or a weaker shade of it acceptable? My tap water tests as the exact same shade as the 0.25 on the colour chart.

 

[Essjay]

Are you doing the test in daylight or under electric light - and if it's electric light, what kind of bulb? Fluorescent lights (including compact fluorescent energy saving bulbs) are known to make the liquid look greener than it really is.

But it is known that some people never see the yellow of zero even if the tank had been running problem free for years. The only explanation anyone has been able to come up with is that it's the way different people's eyes work.

Do you have any bottled water to hand on which the label does not list ammonia? Tap water can be treated with chloramine instead of chlorine - that's a chlorine and an ammonia joined together and that ammonia shows up in the ammonia test.

 

[ClownLurch]

Hi essjay.
Daylight this afternoon for the most recent. Even took it outside. MrsLurch compared it as well.
All others have been by the kitchen window in afternoon light. Every ammonia readings looked the same: direct from tap, 24 hrs later, a week later and nearly two weeks later.

 

[Essjay]

Definitely not the lights then and if someone else sees the same we can rule out your eyesight

If you can hold of some 'pure' water (eg distilled) or bottled water which definitely does not contain any ammonia and that water also shows 0.25, then put it down to a quirk in your tester.

 

[ClownLurch]

Definitely not the lights then and if someone else sees the same we can rule out your eyesight

If you can hold of some 'pure' water (eg distilled) or bottled water which definitely does not contain any ammonia and that water also shows 0.25, then put it down to a quirk in your tester.

Good thinking! See that’s the thinking that wouldn’t occur to a newbie. I’ll get a small bottle of water from Sainsbury’s tomorrow. Ive not seen one since before lockdown....do they still exist?

I think there’s chloramine in the tap water supply details. That may be it?
edit no chloramine it’s chlorine according to the affinity website. Shows ammonia in their report as well.
ill test again tomorrow after water change.

 

[Essjay]

Chloramine doesn't gas off like chlorine. Dechlorinators split chloramine up and remove the chlorine leaving the ammonia part in the water. If your dechlorinator detoxifies ammonia it will 'detoxify' it for around 24 to 36 hours after which time it 'undetoxifies' But even when detoxified it still shows up in the ammonia test.
In a fishless cycle without plants, once the ammonia eating bacteria grow, they remove this detoxified ammonia quickly before it has chance to 'undetoxify'. But I do not know if plants can use this detoxified form of ammonia.

If your dechlorinator does not detoxify ammonia, the plants will will certainly be able to remove it.

 

[Byron]

I would not worry about the 0.25 ammonia reading, as e3ssjay noted this seems to occur sporadically and uis likely due to the chloramine. The nitrites at 2 do puzzle me, I cannot see how that could occur. With plants you do not want nitrite so do some water changes and it should disappear. If the plants show signs of growth (new leaves, etc) and provided ammonia and nitrite are zero you could add the first fish. You have listed some fast growers and some floating, and these if growing will take up all the ammonia the fish cold possibly produce even if you added dozens of fish. But we don't push the envelope.

A comment on tests. Always read test results (with colour involved) in diffused daylight. Never in direct sunlight. And never under artificial light unless it is an emergency. I always read my tests in front of a window with the blinds partly open and no direct sun. Light is a mix of colour wavelengths, and all light is different. Sunlight is different from shaded light, and every artificial bulb/tube/diode is unique light. We see colour because of the light reflected from that surface, so the type of light used is obviously going to affect the colour we see.

 

[Byron]

In a fishless cycle without plants, once the ammonia eating bacteria grow, they remove this detoxified ammonia quickly before it has chance to 'undetoxify'. But I do not know if plants can use this detoxified form of ammonia.

Yes, and in most cases (as with Prime according to Seachem) the binding of ammonia turns it into ammonium, which Seachem says will return to ammonia after Prime is no longer effective. The vast majority of aquarium plants prefer ammonium as their nitrogen, so they will grab any ammonium rapidly, and then (or simultaneously, this I do not know) ammonia rapidly. The following explanation is from Diana Walstad, her book and an article on aquarium nitrogen.

Plants use ammonia in its toxic form and as ammonium in its non-toxic state. All plants use the N from ammonium—not nitrates—to produce their amino acids and proteins. Plants rapidly detoxify ammonia. As NH3 (ammonia) enters the cell by simple diffusion across the membrane, it may combine with a hydrogen ion (H+) and convert to non-toxic ammonium (NH4+) which can be stored in cell vacuoles. In one test, the vacuoles of Nitella clavata were found to contain over 2,400 mg/l of NH4+. Another method plants use to detoxify ammonia is to immediately use the ammonia to synthesize proteins. Toxic NH3 is combined with stored carbohydrates to form ordinary amino acids. Thus, plants that grow well can tolerate more ammonia, because they have more carbohydrates to combine with ammonia. This is one reason why floating plants which are very rapid growers can take up so much ammonia/ammonium--"ammonia sinks" as they are commonly referred to.

Plants remove ammonia/ammonium rapidly, within hours in fact (according to scientifically controlled tests), and it is 24/7--during day and night non-stop. Plants and microorganisms compete for ammonia/ammonium, and the plants are faster.

Aquatic plants seem to prefer leaf uptake of ammonium as opposed to sediment uptake. Thus, in split-chamber experiments with marine eelgrass, when ammonium was added to the leaf/stem compartment, root uptake of ammonium was reduced by 77%. However, when ammonium was added to the root compartment, leaf uptake of ammonium was not reduced. Several aquatic plants (Juncus bulbosus, Sphagnum flexuosum, Agrostis canina, and Drepanocladus fluitans) were found to take up 71 to 82% of the ammonium from the leaves; their roots took up only a minor amount. Hobbyists using fertilizer tablets for aquatic plants should understand the aquatic plant preference for leaf uptake of ammonium (as opposed to root uptake). In aquariums, fish-generated ammonium in the water can fulfill most N needs of plants. Moreover, any nitrogen added to substrates, such as in fertilizer tablets, can have bad and unintended consequences. This is one reason why so-called plant enriched substrates are not good compared to inert sand; and why nitrate should never be added to an aquarium with fish because the plants will not use it and the fish do not need it. Some hobbyists insist on using non-aquatic plant tabs like osmocote, without realizing how harmful they really are, because they are full of nitrate which the plants do not need and likely will not even use depending upon the fish load.

As it is related, a comment on nitrate. If a plant takes up nitrate, it must convert the nitrate to ammonium in an energy-requiring process called ‘nitrate reduction.’ Plants must expend essentially the same amount of energy (83 Kcal/mol) that the nitrifying bacteria gained in order to convert nitrates back to ammonium. The overall reaction for the two-step process of nitrate reduction in plants is:
NO3- + H2O + 2 H+ ⇒ NH4+ + 2 O2
The energy required for plants to reduce nitrates to ammonium is substantial, equivalent to 23% of the energy obtained from glucose metabolism. Thus, if nitrifying bacteria convert all available ammonium to nitrates, plants will be forced—at an energy cost—to convert all the nitrates back to ammonium. This may explain why investigators have shown that several aquatic plant species grow better with ammonium (or a mixture of ammonium and nitrates) than with pure nitrates.

Plants will only take up nitrates when they are forced to. Thus, nitrates may accumulate in aquariums, even those with good plant growth. Biological filtration can cause problems in aquariums, for the nitrification reaction generates acidity and consumes oxygen. Every ammonium converted to nitrate automatically consumes two oxygen molecules (O2) and generates two acids (H+). In unplanted tanks, biological filtration is essential for protecting fish from ammonium. However, it is not essential in planted tanks. I have been surprised by how little filtration is required in my planted aquaria. When I removed the internal media from canister filters, the fish did fine. When I removed the filters altogether and just used internal pumps to circulate the water, the fish did fine. I concluded that biological filtration was totally unnecessary in my planted tanks [Diana Walstad].

 

[ClownLurch]

Chloramine doesn't gas off like chlorine. Dechlorinators split chloramine up and remove the chlorine leaving the ammonia part in the water. If your dechlorinator detoxifies ammonia it will 'detoxify' it for around 24 to 36 hours after which time it 'undetoxifies' But even when detoxified it still shows up in the ammonia test.
In a fishless cycle without plants, once the ammonia eating bacteria grow, they remove this detoxified ammonia quickly before it has chance to 'undetoxify'. But I do not know if plants can use this detoxified form of ammonia.

If your dechlorinator does not detoxify ammonia, the plants will will certainly be able to remove it.

I’ve not used a dechlorinator. Just hoyed the water in from tap. Obviously won’t do that with fish in.

 

[ClownLurch]

I would not worry about the 0.25 ammonia reading, as e3ssjay noted this seems to occur sporadically and uis likely due to the chloramine. The nitrites at 2 do puzzle me, I cannot see how that could occur. With plants you do not want nitrite so do some water changes and it should disappear. If the plants show signs of growth (new leaves, etc) and provided ammonia and nitrite are zero you could add the first fish. You have listed some fast growers and some floating, and these if growing will take up all the ammonia the fish cold possibly produce even if you added dozens of fish. But we don't push the envelope.

A comment on tests. Always read test results (with colour involved) in diffused daylight. Never in direct sunlight. And never under artificial light unless it is an emergency. I always read my tests in front of a window with the blinds partly open and no direct sun. Light is a mix of colour wavelengths, and all light is different. Sunlight is different from shaded light, and every artificial bulb/tube/diode is unique light. We see colour because of the light reflected from that surface, so the type of light used is obviously going to affect the colour we see.

Thanks.
The ammonia things a weight off my mind. Would the nitrite be caused by a lot of dead floating plant leaves and roots churned up by the filter? I hadn’t fitted a tights filter at first. It was carnage! I’ve been fishing out dead roots ever since. I also had some white fuzzy mould on an azalea root which I’ve scrubbed and poured boiling water on and now have soaking in salty water as advised elsewhere by @Colin_T .
I’ll do a 50% water change tomorrow then retest before the weekend and do another 50% if reqd again then retest early next week.
It’d be middle of next week at the earliest before I get any fish even if everything was ok now......even if I knew which fish i wanted!

 

[ClownLurch]

Tested my Ammonia testing kit on a sample of Sainsbury’s still Scottish mountain water, the one with the Scottish flag blue label and thistle drawing to emphasise its Scottishness. Says amongst other ingredients on label that Chloride is smaller than 11mg.
Anyway THAT shows a 0.25 reading also. Which means every test I’ve done so far on fresh tap water, 24hrs standing tap water, one week in tank and 13 days in tank has shown up as 0.25. Including today’s test 48hrs after a 70% water change.



Water tested today (48hrs after 70% water change).
ph 8.0 (down from 8.2)
Ammonia 0.25 (same as fresh from tap)
Nitrate 10 (same as fresh from tap)
Nitrite 0.25 (down from 2.0).
All colours read and confirmed by myself and Mrs Lurch just inside of French windows on rainy day.
Have compared photos with plants on planting day and there’s definite growth with a few new lighter shades of green showing on some at tips.
Im thinking I should do a 30% or so water change this afternoon to tackle the remaining 0.25 nitrite reading before the football starts on TV at 4pm. Would a bigger % be advantageous?