My Fish Are Dying!

[JadeCrusader]

I hope I don't confuse you with all of the details, but I want to give you the full history of this tank so that we can maybe pinpoint the issue.  I test my water and all levels are fine, just maybe a teensy bit high on the Ph after a water change, but nothing to be concerned over, and I use a dechlorinator.  Plus, when we get new fish we don't dump the water that came with them into the tank, which I heard was a smart thing to not do.  If you want to skip the history and read just the most current issue then I have it in bold below.
 
Anyway, I have a 20-gallon tank that I got from someone in town that was overrun with snails.  We've mostly handled the snail issue and have been keeping on top of it.  Next we switched out the fish that came with it (sold two black skirt tetras that I thought were kind of ugly, and a medium-sized plecostemus that had outgrown the space) and have been slowly adding in more fish that we wanted: a betta, 3 orange/black variatus, and a baby pleco, all from PetCo. 
 
We had an overgrowth of algae (I'm thinking since there weren't a zillion snails eating it up anymore) that scrubbing the sides and water changes wasn't handling quickly enough (plus I am a student so got lazy with it during midterms week) so we got 3 ottos from the local pet shop that I discocered (not PetCo), and the lady also talked us into a couple of guppies too.  As I was leaving I asked the lady "What is your policy on these?", since PetCo has such a good one, and she said "Pretty much from here to the car, haha!".  Well I didn't really think that was very funny, but had already bought them so couldn't really complain.  Anyway, the ottos died within a week, so I'm wondering if she knew they were weak which is why her policy sucked so much.  As for the guppies, my betta picked the male to death pretty quickly because he was so slow-swimming, so I sold the females so that wouldn't happen to them too.  The variatus hold their own, but the guppies were too slow/delicate to deter him.  The ottos that died didn't seem sick, just weak, and the guppies died from the abuse from the betta, so I didn't think it was a disease.  But needless to say, I didn't want to buy fish from that lady anymore since I was already out money from her.
 
Anyway, the variatus and the betta and pleco that we got from PetCo were great!  Happy and swimming around like they were in perfect health so we decided to go back to PetCo since those fish seemed hardier.  We fixed the algae problem by being more on top of the cleaning, and we also got a baby Chinese Algae Eater to help too.  So next I wanted something pretty in there, and had decided on some Cardinal Tetras, but when we went to PetCo they didn't have any so since they were having a 5 for $5 sale on the Neon Tetras, I decided those were good enough.  I brought them home and that's where the trouble seemed to begin.  Within 24 hours 2 of the 7 had died and these past two weeks have seen us scooping out dead fish and getting them replaced by PetCo over and over again .  They assured us that it wasn't a disease and that they are just delicate, but I haven't been rough with them and my levels are fine???  I have actually witnessed them die:  They seem fine and then just up and die.  They start swimming eraticly, twitching, and then flop over dead.  Then PetCo was suddenly completely out of Neon Tetras, and when I asked them about it they said "I don't think it was a disease.  Someone must have just bought them all, so don't worry.  You can buy these other Tetras (they have orange glow lines instead of blue and red) in their place.  They'll school together, no problem." Well... I don't really buy that, but figured that if they said it was true then it wouldn't hurt? So then I was finally down to 4 Blue/Red Neons and 2 Orange Neons. Anyways, I've lost ANOTHER Blue/Red Neon Tetra and now my Pleco died suddenly the same way!!!  So that tells me it HAS to be disease right??  To top it off, all of the fish seem really unhappy.  They just... I don't know... don't seem the same.  They aren't calm and swimming predictably and leisurely.  They seem out of sorts and panicky.  My betta has been fine this whole time, but the Variatus and the Chinese Algae Eater and all of the Neons are acting oddly.  Google turned up the suggestion of Columnaris?  But I don't see any lesions or cottony appearance.  They just up and die with no warning.  I am slowly lowering the temperature to try to keep any disease at bay, and I need to buy some sort of treatment I think, but thought I would ask here first.
 
Please help!  Any insights would be amazing.

 

[Ninjouzata]

What kind of test kit are you using? Liquid or strips? Strips are highly inaccurate and don't test for ammonia IIRC.
If you're using liquid, what are the exact readings?
 
I'd recommend returning the CAE, they get much too large for your tank, and can be quite aggressive.
Some end up trying to eat the slime coat off of other fish, and when they reach adulthood they don't eat much algae.
 
As you've learned, guppies are not meant to be mixed with bettas Their colorful flowing fins are mistaken for another betta.
 
Otocinclus can be rather delicate, especially when introduced to a tank that isn't mature.
 
Are all the neons schooling together? I'm not sure myself if they'd stick together or not. Just curious.
 
What kind of plecos have you been buying? Again, out of curiousity. Don't want you picking up a common
 
Can you give a full list of the tankmates? It can be a little confusing from all of the text.
I think you have 4 Neon tetras, 2 orange(?) neon tetras, 1 betta, 1 CAE, and 3 variatus platys?
 
Can you get a picture of the fish? Maybe there is something you're not recognizing on them that someone else will. I'd imagine not, but pictures are usually pretty useful.
 
I realize none of what I wrote has been really helpful, but some of the things I asked will hopefully give everyone a better idea of your tank, and what may be going on. Sorry I couldn't be of more use.
 
Also, 

to the forums.

 

[JadeCrusader]

Thanks for the welcome!  I hope we can find out what wrong before I lose anyone else .
 
And no worries, any more information you can get out of me that will be useful to figuring out what's going on is great!  Thank you

.
 
I use a liquid test kit and can get readings shortly. 
 
The CAE and the pleco were in there for algae control, and because we were planning on upgrading to a 50-gallon soon (though that's not even an option with what is going on right now

).  But yes, the CAE has been the most odd recently.  In the beginning he was very shy and just eating on the tank and nothing more, but the last few days he has been skittling around the tank like crazy pretty much all the time.  He doesn't seem to do anything but run FROM the other fish but I wager that could change when he gets older, like you said.
 
And actually yes, all of the neons seems to be schooling, which I was surprised about.  Although, they are all acting weird so it's not like they are schooling in patterns as I would see from a big group in a pet store, but they do seem to search each other out and take the same paths most of the time.  They will break up and all be on opposite sides of the tank, but then the next time I look they are all in the same group together, so I think that counts?
 
The one pleco I bought that died was more tan/brown than the black kind I am used to seeing, but like I said, he died

.  This makes me the most sad too, since they are my favorite (though I admit that I don't know anything about the different varieties).
 
Tank Mates:
3 Orange/Black Variatus, 1 Male 2 Female
1 Yellow/Black Variatus, Female (I forgot about this girl until now)
1 Male Betta
3 Neon Tetras (Blue/Red)
2 Orange Neon Tetra
1 CAE
 
As for pictures, I can post what I've taken recently and have up on my Facebook.  As you know, fish can be notoriously difficult to photograph for an amateur, so I didn't have the best of luck.
 
OH, and one more thing I forgot to mention:  The odd behaviour recently includes one of my female Black/Orange Variatus hiding a lot recently.  The male has seemed aggressive to the other females, especially that female I just mentioned (which accounts for her hiding, I'm thinking) and the Black/Yellow female, ever since I introduced the Neon Tetras.  he has been aggressively courting the other female Black/Orange Variatus and seems to nip at the others and give chase instead of courting, which is what I found odd.

Here is the link to my facebook album.  I made it public for now so you can see.  These were taken immediately before the tetras started dying off.  I don't really know if they can tell you anything, but you never know...  Now, off I go to do some water tests!
 
https/www.facebook.com/Mrs.ConJEANNIEality/media_set?set=a.10202156602173179.1073741831.1132380205&type=3

 

[JadeCrusader]

My levels looks fine to me, but here are some pics of the cards I'm comparing the colors to.
 
Nitrites:

 
Ammonia:

 
pH (When the lady sold me her fish setup the pH card was missing, so google is the best I have.  I know, not ideal, but here are two pics from different angles.  It seems fairly close to 7.0 to me right now.):

 
Also, I took a video of them acting weird that I will try to have up soon.  My CAE is darting all around and my male variatus is chasing some of the ladies like he is angry and leaving that one female alone like he doesn't even see her (other times he is courting her).  You can also see some of the tetras are here and there, though they gathered together again when I left.  Also, and most sad of all, I lowered the camera for a second to find my betta with my eyes instead of the viewfinder and I found him while I was filming.  He is alive, but he was laying on his side in a rock

.  His belly is big and I haven't fed them since this morning, and he seems to vary between swimming around pretty normally to laying on the bottom, so I don't have much hope for him

.  Poor little bother; Iiked him a lot.

 

[Ninjouzata]

I don't see anything out of order What is that on the filter intake?
I'm really sorry I can't be of more use, and also sorry for your losses so far. Hopefully someone more experienced in fish illnesses (if it is an illness) will come along soon.

 

[JadeCrusader]

Oh, it's just some netting so that no babies get sucked up.  The variatus had some at one point and I have it there now just in case.  Sadly they ate them all, so I have extra hiding spots in there now for next time (if we get that chance).  It is loose enough that it doesn't effect the output so I just leave it there.
 
Also, here is the video.  My camera got full before I was really done, but this is what I have so far.  If you need something specific let me know.  Also, I'll keep an eye on them and see if I can get video of a tetra going down, which would be helpful I'm sure.  My baby is talking about "kiii", which is her word for fish, lol.  And you can see the moment that I realize Snapdragon (our betta) isn't feeling well .
 
http/youtu.be/petn-2ZMAos

 

[JadeCrusader]

I mentioned to my husband what you said about how the CAE behaves and he said that maybe that is what is going on???  He is kinda of crazy in there.  Do you think he is attacking the others?

 

[Blondielovesfish]

First off, to the forum.
 
You're tests are coming back okay, so I don't think they're the problem, which is a good sign!
 
What are you feeding your betta? He looks a little chubby (he's gorgeous BTW! ).
 
How big and how often are your water changes?
What dechlorinator do you use?
 
Do you know the species of your pleco? Was it a common or a BN? Google the names for pics.
 
It would be best (like Ninj said) if you can rehome your CAE ASAP, it won't be long until he will become aggressive.
 
Have you noticed any red lesions on any of the fish?
 
Do your orange tetras look like glowlights?
 
What is your temperature at?

 

[Ninjouzata]

Ah okay, I thought that's what it was.
 
Is that a boat decoration? Is there algae on it or could paint be peeling off?
I couldn't see anything out of the ordinary in the video except for that, and your betta was blending in with the rock so was hard for me to see. I'm sorry it looks like he's not feeling well
 
Your little girls voice is so cute!
 
Maybe it could be the CAE, but I'd think there would be some sort of external signs on the fish if that were the case? Either way though I'd be re-homing it ASAP.

 

[JadeCrusader]

@Blondie, the betta gets these little orange pellets from Walmart that say "betta food" on the container.  Nothing special.  He also nibbles on the flake food from the other fish.  The thing is that he hasn't eaten since this morning so I'm not sure why his belly is so big... maybe a parasite?  Some of the Variatus have big bellys too, but they could be pregnant... The pleco that died didn't have a big belly.  If anything he seemed skinny, though I don't think he was really lacking food in there.
 
Water changes are about 1-2 times a month and never go more than 50%.  I think the last time was just under two weeks ago and was a 25% change and I also cleaned the gravel and sides of the tank.
 
The pleco looked like this (at least, this is the closest I could find on Google images), which I suppose is a common, so I'm going to go with that:

 
As for the CAE, I'll find him a home tomorrow for sure.  He's a cute little guy, but I don't think he's happy.
 
I haven't noticed any lesions, but we did have a nother Neon Tetra just die and I got a video of it going down (albeit a really terrible one since all I had on me at that moment was my phone).  I left him alone to go through his final throes in peace, but once I'm sure he is gone I'll snap some pics of his body to show in case you can see something I can't.
 
I googled Glow Light Tetras and you're right, that's what they are .
 
I had lowered my temperature a little at a time because somewhere else on a different forum I was reading from my phone someone was told that lowering the temp would be the first step in trying to combat columnaris.  I think it was making the fish really unhappy though so I've been putting it back up.  I think it's at 75 degrees Fahrenheit right now.  The Variatus were actually huddled together at the top of the heater which made me worry.
 
@Ninjou, the boat decoration came with the tank when I got it from that lady.  I guess I hadn't even considered that it may not be an approved aquarium decoration or not...  It doesn't appear to have paint coming off, though. I think the green is just algae.  The sides of the tank and the rocks get that same color when we have an overgrowth.

 

[JadeCrusader]

Here are pics of that dead tetra:
 
Possible hemorrhage?:

 
Here is an odd green spot in the gut, but it could just be a sign of necrosis?  I know reptiles show a sign similar to this no matter how they die, it's just natural, but I thought I'd point it out just in case.  It could also be an organ, since its skin is so thin..."

 
You can see the greenish spot in the gut in this pic too:

 
Seems fine on this side too to me too?:

 

 

[Ninjouzata]

The body looks normal to me
Glad you're putting the heat back up, as bettas require a minimum of 78F
 
For future reference, you should be doing a minimum of 25% water changes a week.
Actually..do you have a nitrate test? I doubt that is the cause of this but..maybe?
 
Some more knowledgeable/experienced people should hopefully be able to help later on today.

 

[JadeCrusader]

Thank you; I'll make sure to get the temp up higher... maybe that was the poor guy's problem!!!  I feel awful now

.  I'll definitely be doing more water changes.  I'll put it on my schedule of regular things to do.
 
When I had PetCo test my water he said everything was fine but that i had a teeny bit of Nitrates, which he said could just be because there were fish dying (At least half of the neons not only died buy completely disappeared, which the internet chocked up to them being so small and the other fish and snails gobbling them up quickly).  I don't have a nitrate test; do you think I should get one??
 
Also, I double-checked that sunken ship ornament and it is not just algae, but green paint as well.  It looks like a standard aquarium ornament, but I could be wrong?  Should I take it out?  I've had the tank since mid-summer and everyone has been happy as a clam until these tetra showed up.
 
Also, the betta seems to always have a full belly.  Could he be gobbling up the bodies of the dead tetras that quickly and making himself sick?  Those bodies HAVE to be going somewhere...
 
Maybe the tetras really are just over-delicate and my pleco dying, and my betta being ill, and my Variatus male acting like a butt are just coincidences?  Or related to the neons, but not because of disease, but just because they are disturbing my Variatus and the pleco, and then over-feeding my betta when they die?
 
On another note, the Glow Light Tetras seem to be twitching.  They swim around just find and then stay in one spot and just twitch their fins and mouths like crazy.  Is that normal neon behaviour?

 

[Ninjouzata]

Nitrates are normal to have, I just thought maybe if they were REALLY high that it might be having some effect. I think most say not to go over 80?
You can get a test for it if you like, but they can be pretty inaccurate so it's up to you.
 
I'm wondering if the boat's paint is coming off? I had a ton of algae on one of my ornaments, cleaned it off, and the paint started coming off, so I did not put it back.
I'm not sure if paint coming off would have the effect that is going on in your tank right now or not.
 
How many pellets do you feed the betta? Depending on your answer to that & the fact that he does eat some of the other fishes flakes could be why he's a bit chubby.
 
It could be a coincidence I suppose..and if it's any consolation, I have had a fair few fish die showing no symptoms. It's pretty upsetting not knowing what it is, since you can't do anything about it Sorry you're having to go through this!
 
The twitching sounds normal to me, my rummys do that when sitting in place. Havn't really watched my neons sit in place yet as it's in a different room.

 

[betta fish]

The betta in the vid doesn't look very well at all 

do you have any vids of him swimming or out in the open so we can take a closer look? I don't have and don't want a Facebook account so couldn't view the pics there