My Experience Of Using Leaf Litter And Alder Cones

[Akasha72]

I wanted to share my experience because it may help others.
 
For some time I've been a lover of the blackwater effect and as I keep Amazonian fish it fitted with my 'theme'. I came across some information on using RedBush tea to stain the water and decided to try it. It gave me the stained water effect I desired but then I started reading about using leaf litter to stain the water and also alder cones.
 
During the Autumn I started collecting oak leaves and alder cones. I decided to add the alder cones to a media bag inside my filter and the leaves went into my fry tank as they would also provide infusoria for my fry.
 
This has been going on over several weeks but about 10 days ago I noticed that my cories were flicking and scraping in the sand of my main tank. I observed all of them but couldn't see any sign of parasites and nothing had been added that hadn't been quarentined. When the problem hadn't gone away after a few days I decided to see if my water could provide some clues. All was normal except for my pH. The main tank was reading at around pH 4. For years my tanks have run steadily at pH 6.5 and as I have naturally soft water from my tap with virtually zero gH and kH this was okay. It was stable.
 
It took me a few days to figure out how my healthy tank could have hit such a low in pH - by now I'd forgotten about the alder cones in my filter. It was only when I opened my filter to add some crushed coral that I found the cones and the penny dropped.
 
I decided to check the pH on my fry tank which contained handfuls of the oak leaves I collected. Again the pH read at 4. 
 
Needless to say the alder cones and the oak leaves have been removed from my tank/filters and thrown away. I will never mess with things again in this way.
 
I'm writing this as a warning to others in my situation. If, like me, you have naturally soft water think twice before adding any kind of leaf litter to your tank.
If, of course, you are wanting to add something such as a wild angelfish then it's the perfect thing to lower the pH to a level they are used to in the wild but for our tank bred fish a pH this low will do more harm than good.
Alternately, if you have hard water and wish to try and soften it then it may be an option but do it with caution and keep a close watch on the pH, gH and kH
 
Best wishes
Akasha 

 

[ginaekdal]

I believe I have similar water to you.. my tap water comes out at a pH of 6.4 and the hardness is at 1 (or, like yours, virtually zero). Up until reading this I had thought about adding leaves to the bottom substrate once scaped; now I am not so sure.
 
When you say your tanks have been running at 6.5 with the hardness as low as it is... has this been with crushed coral in for the duration, or have they maintained that pH without?
 
I am wondering whether I ought to add crushed coral (or an equivalent) to my filters as a precaution given how soft my water is, after having read about pH crashes. But reversely I am wary of messing around too much with altering parameters. Is it safe to run a tank with these values without crushed coral?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Safe is relative. Different fish prefer different water parameters. For African cichlids, that water would be a death sentence, but for altum Angels or discus it's practically ideal.

 

[Akasha72]

My tanks have run at around 6.5 since I switched my gravel for sand and this was before I added the coral. Someone on another forum scared the crap out of me going on about pH crashes and that my tank was a ticking time bomb and that was why I added the coral. I've not seen the pH rise all the while the coral has been there but removing it and the addition of the alder cones did cause this crash.
 
I can't say if the tank would have crashed had I of left the coral in but still added the cones. My suggestion would be ginaekdal to add some crushed coral and monitor the pH and then add the leaves and monitor closely. 
 
And yes, what eagles said about fish - my tank is ideal for Discus and I did consider them but I spotted my angels first and fell for them. With a pH of 6.4 your tank is also ideal for fish such as Discus. Angels, dwarf SA cichlids and tetra's too. Cories would be okay too

 

[ginaekdal]

Hm. I did a quick search on the bigger online Norwegian sites (and some small obscure ones) where I usually buy my tank equipment and none seem to be selling crushed coral (or an equivalent). Are there any alternatives I should look at? Or maybe someone on Ebay or the like ships internationally but I expect the price would swiftly go up, especially if this is something that needs replacing.

I would need something that could either be added to an internal filter (without taking up a lot of space) or lie in the tank on or in the substrate. How often does it in fact need to be replaced, and does it also alter hardness significantly?
 
I failed to mention in my last post but yes, I keep and will keep soft water fish. My tanks are on the small side however at 63 and 115 litres, so with the exception of my surprise P. titteya fry and that future group, I will likely stay with smaller shoaling fish for now. Possibly mixed SA and SE Asian, or either.
 
The substrate in my secondhand tank is playsand, I believe, I have no way to identify it further. I am fairly sure the past owner kept the tank without crushed coral in as I got the filter with the tank and it only has sponge.
 
I in no way want to hijack this thread, by the way! You just made me think as your water chemistry seems to mirror mine.

 

[Akasha72]

Hi, well I called at maidenhead aquatic and had a chat with the chap there who is always helpful and full of useful information. I asked if they had any crushed coral and he asked what I wanted it for. I told him what had happened and he said he wouldn't sell me crushed coral for this as the problem with crushed coral is it can suddenly send the pH sky rocketing as far as 9 ... if this were to happen in my tank it would kill my stock very quickly.
 
He showed me a product by JMC that is for re-mineralising soft water. The product they had in stock would allow my pH to rise up to 9 if I dose it wrong but they do another that keeps the pH stable at 6.5. This one was out of stock so I'm about to look for it online. Apparently Waterlife do a similar product. I'm planning on having a look online later when I have more time.
 
Ginaekdal, please feel free to 'hyjack'. The whole point of this thread is for us to discuss and learn from each other

 

[ginaekdal]

You learn something new every day!
 
I was ignorant of the concept of pH crashes until recently (I read your initial thread) and have only now realised my water parameters leave my tanks susceptible to it. Obviously I am very happy with my water and would certainly not wish to raise pH or hardness. I am unsure how common pH crashes are and whether there are other factors at play? Whilst a newbie to fishkeeping it never came up once as I was reading up on other things.
 
I am torn, really. I am wondering whether I should just monitor my tanks over time to get a proper feel for what is normal for me and not. Obviously I expect test results to be slightly different once they are scaped, planted, and fully stocked, and I will need to test to see what is normal over time once that is done as well. I expect my wood to have an effect, for instance. I do not want to alter anything more that necessary either, my stock is and will be fish that fit my water, so perhaps I should just run them as is but keep a safe product on hand in the event of a sudden drop (your last mention sounds promising). I certainly do not want a preemptive "fix" to cause a new problem! I do weekly water changes and I believe unless there is something in the tank that lowers or otherwise alters a value, these will help keep pH stable.
 
So... I will test my water as usual, but not rush to alter my tanks at present, and I will keep an eye on updates about products that safely stabilise pH in soft water tanks.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Hi, well I called at maidenhead aquatic and had a chat with the chap there who is always helpful and full of useful information. I asked if they had any crushed coral and he asked what I wanted it for. I told him what had happened and he said he wouldn't sell me crushed coral for this as the problem with crushed coral is it can suddenly send the pH sky rocketing as far as 9 ... if this were to happen in my tank it would kill my stock very quickly.
 
He showed me a product by JMC that is for re-mineralising soft water. The product they had in stock would allow my pH to rise up to 9 if I dose it wrong but they do another that keeps the pH stable at 6.5. This one was out of stock so I'm about to look for it online. Apparently Waterlife do a similar product. I'm planning on having a look online later when I have more time.
 
Ginaekdal, please feel free to 'hyjack'. The whole point of this thread is for us to discuss and learn from each other

 
A small bag of crushed coral won't raise the pH to 9.  This is a case of lack of understanding breeding misinformation.
 
 
 
The rate at which crushed coral dissolves is related to the pH.  The lower the pH is, the faster it will dissolve.  But, as it dissolves, the rate of dissolution will slow.  
 
The key is to monitor and dose properly.  You've been doing this a fairly long time, with success.  You have been dosing it correctly and achieving your goal of a pH of 6.5.   If this new product is cheaper, then I'd consider it.  But, if it costs more, this guy is taking advantage of you, IMHO.  I'd also not add ANY additive like this, until I knew the exact chemical make-up.  What is this miracle concoction that they are selling that buffers the water to exactly 6.5.  
 
I found the product on waterlife's website, but they don't share any information about what is actually in their product - which is concerning (at least to me).  http/www.waterlife.co.uk/tropical/w-0/6-5-buffer-detail   That's 8 quid for 160 grams....  versus 20 quid for 20 lbs.  http/www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Natures-Ocean-Atlantic-crushed-coral-fish-tank-gravel-20LB-bag-/272154354443?hash=item3f5da9e30b:g:svgAAOSwWTRW13eT

 

[NickAu]

 
I found the product on waterlife's website, but they don't share any information about what is actually in their product - which is concerning (at least to me).  http/www.waterlife...5-buffer-detail   That's 8 quid for 160 grams...

Its a magic product that can both raise and lower PH, Now if you believe that I have a Opera house and bridge for sale.
 

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Buffers can do that sort of thing, but they don't share what the buffer is (likely because they are getting it dirt cheap and reselling it about 5000x profit). I don't trust not knowing the ingredients.

 

[Akasha72]

good morning! 
 
Well I couldn't find the product by jmc (I'm sure that's who he said made it but I could have mis-heard) but I did come across the product that Eagles has linked to. Like Eagles - I want to know what this product is and what is in it and how safe is it before even considering adding it to my tank. I want to be sure it won't harm my beloved stock too!
 
Right now, I'm sticking with water changes and a wing and a prayer. My tank is back up to pH 5 this morning and so another water change this afternoon is on the cards and then I think I'll leave it for a couple of days to see if it can maintain that level. So far I have changed 190 litres over a period of 3 days and yesterday my panda cories spawned - if they wern't happy they wouldn't be doing that

 

[Far_King]

I honestly think if the coral was working for you and you were using it with great success than that is what you should stick with.

 

[Akasha72]

I'm inclined to agree Far_King. It's just a case of getting the pH back up to 6.5 where it was and keeping it there now

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I'm inclined to agree Far_King. It's just a case of getting the pH back up to 6.5 where it was and keeping it there now

 
The coral will do that nicely.  It will take a little time to dissolve and raise it... but that's what you want anyway.  You don't want it to rise too quickly - as that would be tremendously detrimental.   
 
 
As for the 'buffers' that the LFS wants to sell you - I think that is just overpriced calcium carbonate and maybe another buffer mixed together.  You'd be better off sticking to your 'old routine', it was working and is far more economical.  As for the use of oak leaves for the production of infusoria for the fry... I wouldn't swear off them altogether.  I'd just use a bit of coral in that tank as well... to keep it all in balance.  (it might be best to actually run that tank with the oak leaves and the coral for a while in tandem to see how the levels work with a bit of experimentation AND NO FRY).   But, with the way your cories have been recently, that may not be a possibility.  
 
 
If that's not an option, and 'easy' solution (in terms of keeping the water parameters in check, not necessarily in terms of carrying it out) would be to do 50% water changes on the fry tank every day or two using WATER FROM THE MAIN TANK (which would have some of the calcium carbonate pre-dissolved, offering you some buffering capacity).  This would also keep your fry in similar water to the main tank, helping them maintain that connection to the 'birthplace'.  
 
 
It also would force minor water changes to the main tank, which means that the overall nitrate, etc build up in the main tank would be slower, so that the entire system would be 'fresher'.

 

[HarpyFishLover]

Speaking of pH...
I have insanely hard water (like 250-300 ppm), and a few days ago tested again to check chlorine and nitrite. What I found: pH had risen from 7.1 to 7.8, and I have no idea what caused it. I figured it was probably fine, but with what you said... now I must check again.

EDIT- checked again, and it's at 8. I have no earthly idea what happened, as I didn't add ANYTHING new except 2 fish.