Minimum Sized Tank For A Betta?

[OohFeeshy]

I've currently got a few 1gs in temporary use and a few more 1.5gs (3 or so long and squat, two cubular) and I've yet to see anything that indicates 'unhappiness' with said tank. They swim around, they bubblenest viraciously, bright colours (if the betta in question actually *is* brightly coloured), long, perfectly shaped fins (or short in the case of the two PKs and one female), chubby, and the only illness I've ever had was brought on by something airbourne. So something must be right- maybe it's the non-dechlored water, the healthy algael growth, tank size and sparse feeding For every person who agrees with Lynden, many won't actually have kept bettas, or if they have, not many, and there are at least ten people to every one of those. Personally I think it's cruel keeping bettas with any other fish, but lets not get into that... And if you particularly want to get involved in other peoples fishkeeping practices, well, it's definately not right to to keep Pangasius in tanks at all...

 

[Gankutsuou]

I'm going to back up the 1.5 gallon, as I have one with an internal whisper filter, and my Midnight seems perfectly Fine and healthy, has experinced greater color, and seems okay with it.

And you can then use the whole "would you be okay in a closet" thing.

Proportionatly from betta to closet, it would be the same as living in my room. Not the spice of life. But if I had the mental reasoning and ability of a betta, I'd be more than happy to live in my room.

 

[Lynden]

Christ-o-mighty, I think you people are becoming what you acuse me of being... I seldom am flamed worse...

Maybe it is the non-Betta keepers that agree with me, but it is also the Betta-keepers that don't

lljdma06 and I had a discussion via Personal Message today. It was not heated, and I like to consider it a friendly discussion. But I do think I made some good points in it. Below is an exact copy of my last message. If for whatever reason anyone doesn't believe me, then ask lljdma06 what he/she received.

I do not doubt your skill or experience... so you don't need to worry about that.

I just wish that all fish were treated equally - including Bettas. I would be flamed if I announced that I had a Goldfish in a bowl, but I would be commended if I had a Betta in one. I don't think that's right. I think that all fish deserve at least 5 gallons, no matter if they are 1'' or 2.5'' or 100''. I am well aware of "nano" tanks, "nano" fish and the like. I know how to run one (in saltwater, at least), and I know the increased needs of one.

Perhaps some Bettas are lazy. But every Betta that I have ever had has been far more active and colourful an a tank of 10 gallons as opposed to a tank of <5 gallons. My little brother actually has one in a ten gallon right now, along with a Gourami, Corydoras, and two baby Polypterus senegalus. He cruises along the entire length of the tank, and his human responsiveness (as opposed to the other fish in the house) is matched only by my Triggerfish.

However, the Bettas I used to keep in fishbowls (years ago) always looked bored, lazy, colourless, and sad. They did blow bubblenests from time to time. When 2 eventually died, I put the last on in a ten gallon community tank (including a female Betta) with a powerful filter and several other sources of aeration (the tank was on the heavy end, stocking wise). He brightened up after a day, and was no longer a lazy creature that lay on the bottom of the tank all day.

Though your tank does appear quite suitable; plants, good lighting, heating, and a filter if I remeber correctly, not everybody will take this kind of care when setting up a system for a Betta, especially if they have 400000 of them ("Betta Keepers"). And although I do still wish that you had a bigger tank for your Betta, it is mainly the "Betta Keeper" type of people I am trying to change the opinion of.

But basically, I am trying (desperatly, but to apparently little avail) to instill a new idea into fishkeeping. Animal cruelty is occuring when Bettas are thought to live happily in any condition, in my opinion at least. Animal cruelty is a terrible thing, and if the perpetrator is not willing to at least consider an opinion besides their own and give up their self-righteousness, then they deserve to be belittled. I will take care not to be as harsh, though.

I give compliments and many thanks to you for discussing this issue with me, and considering my opinion instead of just being annoyingly self righteous (we both know which users were). You are very respectable in my books for that.


-Lynden

I did consider editing the post, but decided not to because I do not beleive in "talking behind the backs of others"... that is, if any reader is offended by the post.

As you all can plainly see, I did not make reference to the "would you be okay in a closet" thing.

-Lynden

P.S. Oops.... I hope nobody points a "certain something" out...

 

[stang1]

Why don't you give it a rest Lynden. Stop trying to score points, its very immature.
Everybody has their own opinion and I am quite happy to listen to other peoples opinions, but I don't have to agree.
As for self-righteousness, pot, kettle and black spring to mind!
You are entitled to an opinion, as we all are, but you are assuming that your opinion is right and everyone else is wrong.
We are never going to agree on this subject and I'm sure a lot of other people won't either.
Like I said before, don't accuse Betta keepers of being cruel when you know nothing about them. You are going to grow up being a very cynical and judgemental young man!

 

[wuvmybetta]

Lynden, it's easy to be a 'keyboard warrior' but what do you actually do to help bettas, other than accuse people, who obviously care enough about their fish to spend day after day on a forum for fish, of gross mistreatment? Quit talking about it, act on it. Go save all of those fish in itty bitty cups, talk the stores into making them bigger.. or do something beneficial.
I think you'd have greater success (with what seems to be your new personal cause) if you stood around the betta area of your local chain petstore talking to new fish owners about proper tank size. I gotta admit, it's getting really old seeing this from you time and time again...at every given opportunity. I understand that you're trying to do the right thing, iyo, but seriously..the way you talk down to others is just growing tiresome. Although you are not unlike many,many,many members I've seen around before who keep one betta in a ten gallon and look down their nose at everyone else with a 'holier than thou' attitude because of that one fish.
So, okay, your fish likes his ten gallon, great. I have a couple males with tens of their own too, woopty doo. Big deal.
With that said, my daughters girl scout troop recently went on an 'animal' trip to Petsmart where the troop leaders bought them *drumroll* a betta each equipped with their own little 30 ounce bowls The bowl seemed quite a generous upgrade to 'non fishy' people, of course I stressed (repeatedly) how great the 2.5's are, and when we got home with our new pet betta we promptly put him in a 2.5 and he's quite a happy fellow. Now you, Lynden, may point your finger at my little seven year old daughter and call her cruel for using a 2.5..but ya know what? I bet 98% of the fish purchased that day are rotting in those itty bitty bowls and theres nothing anybody can do about it. Of course I plan to do a Betta Care 101 at the next meeting, I tried my best to talk the troop leaders into the biggest bowls they could find...and I insisted that each girl gets a bottle of dechlorinator, but otherwise I closed my eyes and let them handle it as to not come off pushy and to stay as far away from that train wreck as I could.
This sort of thing happens everyday, there are millions, and millions of bettas rotting in those little bitty desk sized hex cups right now. But no one here keeps their fish in those so maybe you should give it a rest as far as the forum folk go, and go out and tackle a real problem.

Oh and, I think keeping a betta in a 10 with a gourami is far crueler than keeping a betta in a 1 gallon bowl. And seriously, two bichirs in a ten gallon,along with numerous other fish? Maybe you should pull the log from your own eye. Just sayin'...

 

[Lynden]

I am not necessarily going to grow up a judgemental youg man. You keep saying I know nothing about "Betta Keepers". That maybe true - however I do know all I need to know about them to make judgements in this topic - that they keep many Bettas in small quarters.

I can see very plainly I am getting nowhere. I guess this revolution will be halted by the masses. Makes me very, very sad, in fact. It would be so easy for every "Betta Keeper" to just get a large tank and divide it into reasonable (as in plenty of room to swim - you know, what every other fish gets) sections for each Betta. That way, they would have plenty of mental stimulation (ie, being able to see each other; it's been proven that this even prompts them to "flare" and blow bubbles more often), it would be easy to filter (example, one large canister filter with a spray bar stretching the entire tank's length), easier to do water changes (one big water change instead of 40000 water changes), ect.

So then... this topic will die. For now. I will rise again... that is, I will rise someday.

However. "Every fish should be treated equally" is not an opinion, it's a fact.

-Lynden

Oh and, I think keeping a betta in a 10 with a gourami is far crueler than keeping a betta in a 1 gallon tank. And seriously, two bichirs in a ten gallon,along with numerous other fish? Maybe you should pull the log from your own eye. Just sayin'...

Are you kidding me? Of course you think so. The fact remains, the Betta cruises, not lays.

Also, I do not blame your daughter at all. Although, I suppose I shouldn't blame you either - you are practically worthy of worship in my eyes for giving male Bettas a ten gallon each

I wish I could do something besides being a "keyboard warrior"... as if the "big wigs" are going to change ther entire organization over the ..."opinion"... of a single person - a teenager, no less. My idea was to get other people to help me, by spreading my words.

 

[Synirr]

Stop trying to score points, its very immature.

If "scoring points" in a debate is immature, the I guess all our presidents, prime ministers, lawyers ect. all have the psyche of a baby

... Yes?

 

[wuvmybetta]

Also, I do not blame your daughter at all. Although, I suppose I shouldn't blame you either - you are practically worthy of worship in my eyes for giving male Bettas a ten gallon each

Don't get too excited, I only said a couple. I firmly believe in smaller 'tanks'...a 2.5 being perfect.

So,just for fun before I go to bed, if I were to ask in the cichlid section if a 120 gallon was enough tank for 1 midas cichlid, think they'd say yes? Of course everyone would, it seems a fairly generous size for just one fish, correct? No, it's not. My midas has already outgrown his 120 imo, watching him in his tank is the equivalent of a betta in a one gallon. Really. Any fish in a tank is cruel,nothing compares to open water. All we can do is the best for the fish we keep. Everyone here cares about their fish- and those who do not are quickly sniffed out by the masses.

 

[OohFeeshy]

That maybe true - however I do know all I need to know about them to make judgements in this topic - that they keep many Bettas in small quarters.

Small by whose standards? 2.5g is practically huge compared to some tanks there are. Seen the pico planteds at a few hundred ml, if that? Pico reefs with (shock horror), living things in them (inverts mainly, but some people keep fish in them)? Your standards are not the same as everyone elses, I've been to pico reef forums where people have reccomended fish for (more shock horror) tanks under 5g . And they certainly know more about that area of fishkeeping than you.

It would be so easy for every "Betta Keeper" to just get a large tank and divide it into reasonable (as in plenty of room to swim - you know, what every other fish gets) sections for each Betta.

Urm, no it wouldn't. Besides which, how is dividing one tank any better than smaller, individual tanks? It's much, much worse. Because each section is going to be very tall and narrow- certainly not suitable for bettas by your standards.

That way, they would have plenty of mental stimulation (ie, being able to see each other; it's been proven that this even prompts them to "flare" and blow bubbles more often)

That is not a good assumption to make. Too much flaring is very bad for bettas- stressful, uses a lot of energy, often leads to split fins and tailbiting. Bettas do not need to flare at all- if the keeper so wishes, then a mirror for a few minutes per day, or allowing two in adjacent tanks to see each other is sufficient. But there are many more ways of mental stimulation than encouraging stress- plenty of decorations, live food, keeper interaction... And if it requires a betta to continually be flared to make bubblenests, then that's not too good either. Most will bubblenest of their own free will, not becasue they feel threatened.

it would be easy to filter (example, one large canister filter with a spray bar stretching the entire tank's length)

But also more difficult to prevent current in each section.

easier to do water changes (one big water change instead of 40000 water changes), ect.

Again, no. It takes me about a minute to do each of the smaller tanks, but about half an hour to do the 4ft.

However. "Every fish should be treated equally" is not an opinion, it's a fact.

Equally, yes, but how equally depends. How you treat, for example, an arowana is completely different to how you treat a guppy. One's food, one eats food

Are you kidding me? Of course you think so. The fact remains, the Betta cruises, not lays.

Same as in all my tanks, and most other betta keepers. The only time bettas 'lay' is if they're ill or bored- one of which is less likely in a smaller tank with regular water changes and the toher is completely advoided with adequate stimulation- again, betta tanks are. I agree with wuv- bettas are solitary fish, it is cruel to keep a betta with other fish when it does not benefit them in any way, indeed, does the opposite. And even juvi senegals shouldn't be in a ten...

I wish I could do something besides being a "keyboard warrior"...

Then why don't you? Get some 'now and then' evidence if you want to prove your point- get a betta and a 20g to keep it in, attempt to 'prove' that that betta is happier in there than in any of our tanks. Go on. I dare you

as if the "big wigs" are going to change ther entire organization over the ..."opinion"... of a single person - a teenager, no less. My idea was to get other people to help me, by spreading my words.

Who cares if your a teenager? Me too- but the fact is that I can come up with a coherant arguement and you... can't. Honestly, you sound like a missionary.... And think of all the problems *they* caused with those 'heathens' they wanted to convert Just one request- stop with the holier than thou attitude, it's driving me mad.

Oh- and Wuv- Squee! Its the cowfish!

 

[DarkEntity]

Ive had Betta in small - meaning less the 5 Gall - and mine in particular definately were not happy. My male lost most of its colour and just sulked on the bottom.

Since then i now wont use anything less than 10Gal and they are much happier, colours glowing, flares at any given oppertunity a much happier fish.

 

[Synirr]

We've had this discussion before, but I see no difference in the behaviour of a betta in a 2.5 gallon and a 10. Now those bettas in mason jars at work, on the other hand....

That way, they would have plenty of mental stimulation (ie, being able to see each other; it's been proven that this even prompts them to "flare" and blow bubbles more often)

This makes the assumption that these activities are enjoyable for the betta, when in fact, too much flaring is very stressful. In their minds, they are having to be on the lookout and defend their territory from others every second of every day. This is not something they do for "fun" or whatever you seem to think, but out of instinctual necessity, and as mentioned, it can easily lead to tailbiting or blown fins. Take it from someone who has tried it before (long ago,) a tank divided so that they can see one-another is a bad idea, and the fact that you suggest it just shows how little you truly understand about this species. It never works in the longrun. Seeing a neighbor on occasion can liven up their day, but you want them to be able to catch a quick glimpse of the shape of another betta at the most if you are going to house them close together like that.

Oh and, I think keeping a betta in a 10 with a gourami is far crueler than keeping a betta in a 1 gallon tank. And seriously, two bichirs in a ten gallon,along with numerous other fish? Maybe you should pull the log from your own eye. Just sayin'...

Are you kidding me? Of course you think so. The fact remains, the Betta cruises, not lays.

Until the gourami decides to rip him apart one day, then he might find it a bit more difficult to cruise. That combination is a timebomb. Stop excusing your poor habits by concentrating solely on tank size -- there's a lot more to fishkeeping than that, and you know it. At least I hope you are familiar with that concept, otherwise I'll be forced to believe you're not just playing dumb.

 

[stang1]

The trouble is Lynden, you assume people have not tried keeping Bettas in bigger tanks. My first fighter was kept in a 42g with 6 White Cloud Mountain Minnows. While he seemed happy enough, he spent all his time in one corner of the tank not doing a great deal. My Bettas are now all kept in 4g tanks where they swim about and keep active. They have not lost their colour in any way and they are better of than they would be in the shop. One of my fighters was kept in a tank with Zebra Danios at the lfs and had his fins ripped to shreds. I brought another Betta yesterday who was kept in a 1/2g tank with no plants or hiding places. He was just sitting at the bottom of his tank looking sorry for himself. He now has a tank with plenty of plants and places to hide and he's swimming about quite happy.
As Synirr pointed out, putting Bettas in a divided tank is not any better than what they've got now. It certainly wouldn't be healthy for them to see each other constantly and spend the day flaring at each other. This would only cause them to be stressed. You claim you have years of Betta experience, this statement clearly proves you don't!

 

[lljdma06]

Take it from someone who has tried it before (long ago,) a tank divided so that they can see one-another is a bad idea, and the fact that you suggest it just shows how little you truly understand about this species. It never works in the longrun. Seeing a neighbor on occasion can liven up their day, but you want them to be able to catch a quick glimpse of the shape of another betta at the most if you are going to house them close together like that.

Hey, my divided tank worked extremely well long-term! I will, however, give you this Synirr. My divided tank was densly planted, and the bettas only got that "occasional" glimpse that promotes stimulation without causeing undue stress.

I think this thread is blowing up way beyond its original scope, and is extremely close to becoming a series of personal attacks, which benefits no one. The key, I believe, to influencing others is subtlety and consideration of their arguements. I also believe that this thread has more than exercised its purpose for Spudgun2k, the original poster. I encourage that it be closed, before it escalates further.

Warmest regards,

llj