Mini Cycle Question

[stanleo]

So yesterday my RCS were going nutso. The temp was high and the filter was clogged to the point that the water was just coming out in a trickle. I don't know how long this was happening cause I only noticed while doing a WC of 30%. I lowed the temp to a more reasonable 75F/24C
 
So I cleaned the filter and it is working great. I also added a small bag of new charcoal to it and put enough Prime in the tank for a 50gl. Its a small 10gl shrimp tank so I know that things can go wrong very quickly.
 
There are no dead shrimp that I can see today and they are acting normally. What leads me to believe that I am going through a mini cycle is that the water is cloudy. No a lot but its noticeable and I just did a water test and ammonia is showing slightly between 0 and 0.25ppm.
 
What should I do now? I was thinking water change but how much? Also should I put more Prime in?
 
AM I going through a mini cycle? The filter was cycled, this tank has been running for over 3 months and I haven't had problems with it til now.

 

[Ninjouzata]

I'm not sure if you're going through a mini-cycle or not but doesn't overdosing on the prime sometimes mess with the ammonia reading?
Glad all your shrimpies are okay!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Do the water change to make the water clear. There is never ever any reason to dose prime at 5 times.
 
Do a normal dose of it with the water change. If I thought a lot of it was still active in your tank, I would tell you not to add any.
 
That big a dose of Prime pretty much makes your test kit useless.
 
Clean your filter media more often, too

 

[stanleo]

I'm not sure if you're going through a mini-cycle or not but doesn't overdosing on the prime sometimes mess with the ammonia reading?
Glad all your shrimpies are okay!

Thanks I am glad they are okay, too! I didn't know that about Prime. I just started using it. Good to know!
 
 

Do the water change to make the water clear. There is never ever any reason to dose prime at 5 times.
 
Do a normal dose of it with the water change. If I thought a lot of it was still active in your tank, I would tell you not to add any.
 
That big a dose of Prime pretty much makes your test kit useless.
 
Clean your filter media more often, too

I thought I read on here somewhere that overdosing Prime is not dangerous but after reading your posts for a while I will definitely go with what you said. You know your stuff!
 
I am doing the water change now. I do clean all my filters once a month BUT last time I cleaned this filter I forgot to clean the sponge cover for the intake tube. Actually I can't remember the last time I cleaned it. lesson learned! I will clean this one every 2 weeks now though. It makes sense that in a smaller tank it should be cleaned more often. Thanks for the advice!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Once a month is not enough.
 
At least every other week would be better.
 
Your fish will thank you.

 

[the_lock_man]

Overdosing Prime a bit is ok, but the point that TTA is trying to make is that 5x overdosing is NOT fine.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I am not sure how much of a need there is to overdose dechlors. Aside from the primary use of them to handle chloramine and chlorine as well as some heavy metals, they are not the ideal choice for dealing with excess ammonia etc. except in an emergency. And then we are talking about a one time thing here not a standard dosing regimen. I certainly would not be inclined to add more than twice the normal dose.
 
Trying to do this during a fish in cycle is rapidly going to create more problems than it solves, especially for anybody not real familiar with cycling. Test results will get weird and this causes even more missteps. I see a big dose of Prime or Amquel etc. as a stop gap to allow one to implement a better solution. It can be done instead of a huge water change.
 
I also know the expert on tank bacteria tells people overdosing these products inhibits the bacteria to some extent. That is, they become less efficient, if that is possible, since they are inefficient naturally. It is why their doubling times are so long compared to other bacteria.
 
Finally, it seems to me that any situation drastic enough to need 5 times the required dose to fix, is something so serious that it needs a much better permanent solution ASAP.

 

[stanleo]

I would never have put that much in if I didn't consider it an emergency and I don't like putting any chemical directly into a tank but like I said, it felt like an emergency.
 
Also, the water is very cloudy today. I changed 20% yesterday. Should I do more? I didn't test today because you said the test would be useless.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Here is a good thing to bear in mind regarding testing. All of the kits we use for nitrogen related stuff have color charts and we compare the color of the test vial results to the test card. While the tests use chemical reagents to cause the reactions, the result of those reactions is visual. And here is the first problem- vision is subjective, so we do not necessarily all see the exact same color. That is why when folks post their test results there is often a lack of unanimity regarding the color.
But there is more to it than this. When water is cloudy, it will change how the colors look. So now you have a second potential problem with interpreting results, especially the lower level ones.
 
Between your excess dechlor and cloudy water, I would think results would be a bit unreliable here.
 
You reacted to an ammonia reading you described as somewhere between 0 and .25 ppm. that really was not a threat to anything short term if it was actually there. Next, cloudy water is unrelated to anything to do with the cycle. It is a bloom of heterotrophic bacteria due to excess organic waste.
 
Stop driving youself crazy. Stop adding things to the tank needlessly. Instead, stop feeding the tank for the next few days. Do another 50% wc and dechlor at the standard dose. Then watch everything. Make sure the inhabitants are behaving normally. You can test in 24, but if you see the same reading but the fish etc. are all acting OK, do nothing. You can wait another day or two and things should be fine as long as ammonia does not rise.
 
If you do indeed have something making .25 ppm in a pretty much cycled tank, it should take the existing bacteria about a good lunch hour to catch up. And thus no more ammonia. If this is not the case, the ammonia would not just sit at .25, it should build up. What it should not do is sit constantly at .25 ppm.
 
In fact, I would challenge anybody to come up with a reasonable explanation how, in a cycled tank, there can suddenly be a real .25 ppm reading whenever one tests for a number of days in a row, say 3 to 5? Or explain how in an uncycled tank with 0 ammonia in it there is suddenly a .25 ammonia reading anytime one tests it over the next 3-5 days (and don't tell me you add it, please). Constant low numbers always raise a red flag for me.
 
Look at all the charts for various methods of cycling. Whether the traditional one for fish in or the newer ones for fishless, including the one here, the levels of ammonia and nitrite are rarely unchanged for more than a couple of days, especially low level numbers. They are either moving up towards a peak or down from one.

 

[stanleo]

I didn't put the dechlorinator in there because of the 0-0.25 reading. I did it as a reaction to all the shrimp swimming crazy all over the tank and someone suggested that it was heavy metal poisoning or copper poisoning that could be causing it and that they would all be dead in a day. That's why I overdosed it and put the new bag of charcoal in there. I actually wasn't getting any reading on ammonia when tested that day. It was the next day after adding the Prime that I noticed the ammonia so most likely it was a faulty reading because of the Prime. Sorry about the confusion. \
 
I think they were acting crazy because of a mating thing. All the females have saddles right now so that's probably what it was and they might have been reacting to the water being off a little because of the clogged filter. I panicked because of the heavy metal thing. I agree with you that a one time reading of 0.25 ammonia is nothing to worry about in a cycled tank.
 
I won't be adding anything more to the tank but I stupidly fed them an algae wafer right before I read your post.
 
So tomorrow I am going to do a 50% wc and just let the cloudiness clear up on its own. I would do it now but I have to go work. Thanks for the advice, as always much appreciated.
 
If you want more info, this is the link to the thread about the shrimp going nuts. http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421917-my-cherry-shrimp-going-nuts/

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I have been told by an invert expert that when shrimp are well fed you don't see much activity. But when they get hungry, they become active and you see them darting all over the tank in search of food.
 
At least with amanos, I can say this is true.

 

[stanleo]

Its interesting you say that. I have been wondering lately if I feed them enough. There are now over ninety but like 30 of them are still very small. I feed them one algae wafer every other day.
 
When I first started with them and there weren't so many I was definitely over feeding them. The wafer would stay in the tank til the next morning and start to get icky looking so I would take it out. Then started those ugly little white worms so I stopped and broke the wafer in half and only put one in every third day and this lessoned the worms and the wafer would get eaten. Now one wafer only lasts about 6 hours. Think I should feed them more?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

When you don't see them darting about all over the tank, they are not hungry and don't need food. So don't feed.
 
When you see them darting all over the tank, they are hungry and looking for food. So feed them.

 

[Mollydolly]

This post is really helpful and very interesting, glad i read it right through, ok a blonde question here i know, why do you put charcoal into yiur tank please? I dont have it in mine currently does it depend on what your keeping in your tank as to if you need it or not? I didnt even realise you could get it to out in, but im a beginner. Do fish need charcoal and what does it do? Thanks in advance

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I only use carbon to remove meds or when I have a problem where I thing it is warranted. However, there are many benefits to running carbon. I think it really depends on the given tank and even moreso, the quality of one's tap water. Rather than try to write it all up for you, I suggest you have a read here http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/library-presentations/aquarium-hobby/activated-carbon