Maxpowers Fishless Cycle Diary

[MaxPower]

Hello everyone,

I have spent quite a bit of time reading the useful articles on this website and wading through the thousands of topics similar to mine. Eventually I got to a point where I thought Ill go for and started my cycle but it appears I have tripped at the first hurdle. Maybe I should have created a topic to start with instead of trying to go it alone, you all seem fairly friendly after all.

Just in case it helps here is the series of events: Tank build, gravel washed and added to tank, water added to tank, declorinator added to tank, internal filter and heater added and powered up (heater @ 28deg), left overnight to bring upto temperature, day 1 starts from the 1st test the day after setup.

Readings taken at 20:00 daily.

API Tap water readings:
PH - 7.4
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 0
NitrAte - 20/40

Nutrafin Tap water readings:
Ph - 8.0 / 8.5
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 0
NitrAte - 5 / 10

Day 1
Ph - 8.0
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 0
NitrAte - 5
(Ammonia Added)

Day 2
Ph - /
Ammonia - 2.4 (I probably didn't add enough, thinking too little is better than too much)
NitrIte - 0
NitrAte - /
(Added a little extra ammonia and retested)
Ammonita - 4.9

Day 3 (This is where it all goes wrong, what happened to the Ph?)
Ph - 9.0
Ammonia - 4.9
NitrIte - 0
NitrAte - /

Day 4
Ph - 9.0
Ammonia - 2.4
NitrIte - 0
NitrAte - /

Day 5
Ph - 9.0
Ammonia - 2.4
NitrIte - 0 (slight tinge of colour)
NitrAte - /

Day 6
Ph - /
Ammonia - 2.4
NitrIte - 0
NitrAte - /

Day 7
Ph - 9.0
Ammonia - 2.4
NitrIte - 0.1 (huzzah)
NitrAte - /

Day 8
Ph - 8.5
Ammonia - 2.4
NitrIte - 0.8
NitrAte - 10 possibly more

Day 9
Ph - /
Ammonia - 2.4
NitrIte - /
NitrAte - /

Day 10
Ph - /
Ammonia - 2.4
NitrIte - /
NitrAte - /

Day 11
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.6
NitrIte - /
NitrAte - /

Day 12 (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - < 0.6 (slight tinge of colour)
NitrIte - /
NitrAte - /

Day 13
Ph - 8.0 - 8.5
Ammonia - 2.4
NitrIte - 3.3+
NitrAte - 110+

Day 14
Ph - /
Ammonia - 2.4
NitrIte - /
NitrAte - /

Day 15 (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - /
NitrAte - /

Day 16
Ph - /
Ammonia - 4.9
NitrIte - 3.3+
NitrAte - /

*** Changed to API test kit ***

Day 17
Ph - 7.8
Ammonia - 4.0
NitrIte - 5+
NitrAte - 5.0

Day 18
Ph - /
Ammonia - 2.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 19
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.9
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - 5.0

Day 20 (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.0
NitrIte - /
NitrAte - /

Day 21
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.1
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - 40

Day 22 (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 23 am
Ph - /
Ammonia - 2.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - 80

Day 23 pm
Ph - /
Ammonia - 2.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 24 am
Ph - /
Ammonia - 2.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 24 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.1
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 25 am
Ph - /
Ammonia - 4.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 25 pm
Ph - 7.4
Ammonia - 2.0
NitrIte - /
NitrAte - /

Day 26 am
Ph - /
Ammonia - 1.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 26 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - 80+

Day 27 am
no tests

Day 27 pm
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.5
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - 80+

Day 28 am
no tests

Day 28 pm
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.5
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 29 am (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 29 pm
Ph - /
Ammonia - 2.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 30 am (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 30 pm
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.1
NitrIte - /
NitrAte - /

Day 31 am (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - DNW

Day 31 pm
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.1
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - DNW

Day 32 am
no test, no ammonia added as I was late for work

Day 32 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.1
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - DNW

Day 33 am
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.25/0.5
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 33 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 34 am
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.5
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

*** 80% Water change ***

Day 34 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - 7.2
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 1.0
NitrAte - 5

Day 35 am
no tests

Day 35 pm
no tests

Day 36 am (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.0
NitrIte - 5.0
NitrAte - /

Day 36 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - 8.0
Ammonia - 0.0
NitrIte - 5.0
NitrAte - 5

Day 37 am (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 37 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0.0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - 5

Day 38 am (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - /
NitrAte - /

Day 38 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - 8.0
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - 5

Day 39 am
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 39 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - 7.2
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - 5

Day 40 am
no tests

Day 40 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - 5

Day 41 am
no tests

Day 41 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - 7.8
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - 40

Day 42 am
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 42 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 43 am
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 5.0+
NitrAte - /

Day 43 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 5.0 (didn't go instantly purple so may be coming down)
NitrAte - 160

Day 44 am
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 5.0
NitrAte - /

Day 44 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 0 (wohoo)
NitrAte - /

Day 45 am (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 0
NitrAte - /

Day 45 pm (Added Ammonia)
Ph - /
Ammonia - 0
NitrIte - 0
NitrAte - /

I will update daily with new data, any pointers greatly appreciated.

 

[djl08]

Welcome, i myself only started my cycle 10 days ago so im pretty much in the same boat.

For the amount of ammonia you should use the ammonia calculator - http/www.fishforums.net/aquarium-calculator.htm

As for the Ph, the Ph of you tap water is pretty high to start with and ammonia raises it a little. I'm not really sure how to lower it, if it needs lowering, have to wait for advice from the more experienced members.

Apart from that, it all looks ok as far as I can tell. I'm still waiting for my first dose of ammonia to process so dont worry about the amount of time it takes.

- Dj -

 

[MaxPower]

Thank you for the words of encouragement and pointers, I understand that this is a slow and sometimes painful process but I didn't want it to come to a standstill before it had even started.

As for the ammonia quantities I used the calculator you linked to and it worked out to 6.5ml trouble was the only measuring device I had was a 10ml jar so I still had to estimate, I underestimated to be safe, probably too much. I have measured and marked the jar now to avoid this problem for the next dose.

The test kit I used (Nutrafin master test kit mini) only reads upto Ph 9 so I was also worried that it could even be past this? does it need lowering to continue cycling and if so how?

 

[waterdrop]

Hi max and welcome to the beginner section!

You are correct about the ammonia amount, better to be a little below than to overshoot and have your ammonia up at 8ppm or higher. At that level the wrong species of bacteria is encouraged, so we want to avoid that. In contrast, being "too low" (ie. less than 4ppm or 5ppm) is actually no problem at all as the only really important aspect of these levels is that 5ppm be reached at the *end* of fishless cycling, so that you know the colonies are robust and strong. Lower ppm levels in the earlier stages are fine and don't cause any problems.

Now, about the more interesting problem of pH. There is little evidence that I'm aware of to indicate at what point pH will pass from "slowing down bacterial growth" to "stalling the process or killing bacteria" as the pH moves *above* the optimal 8.0 to 8.4 range. All we know is that the 8.0 to 8.4 range has been found to promote the -fastest- growth, when other factors are held steady, but we know that as you go above that there is not a precipitous drop-off to something terrible, at least that anyone here has reported from the few scientists who study any of this stuff. The assumption I've always seen is that as you proceed above pH=8.5, the "optimization" falls off, but that just means that theoretically your fishless cycle is taking a little longer. Since everything surrounding a fishless cycle is pretty difficult know precisely, you're unlikely to ever know this anyway! (ie. you wouldn't be able to tease it out from other factors that might have slowed your fishless cycle.)

So all that's to say that there's no hard and fast reason to take any special action to change anything just because you're seeing a pH of 9 with your kit. I would venture that its probably best to just carry on with proper fishless cycling technique and before long the nitrification process itself will begin producing some acids and the pH will probably be pulled downward into the optimal range. In that regard you may end up having a more optimal bacterial growing environment than many others.

At any rate, it often takes a couple weeks for the first ammonia to drop to zero anyway and all you can do is record your daily test of ammonia and pH (that's all you really need at this point) into your aquarium logbook and of course post up the results here if you care to. In a week or so you'll probably want to add in nitrite(NO2) to the tests you do and then a little later you'll want to start testing twice a day, about 12 hours apart and eventually start adding some nitrate(NO3) tests just out of curiosity. Its the gradual collection of those daily series of ammonia, nitrite(NO2) and pH numbers that will become more and more valuable as your first real picture of what's going on in there.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[MaxPower]

Thank you for the very informative post. I will continue to try and cycle.

Will my high PH affect the fish I will be able to keep when the cycle is complete?

 

[waterdrop]

People get very confused trying to think about the future pH of their tank while they are fishless cycling. Its sort of impossible not to be influenced by the numbers you are seeing during the fishless cycling and it just won't be that way later necessarily. So we recommend that you simply not try to judge your pH situation during fishless cycling. Take the pH of your tap water and use that as a very rough general way to think about the dirction of your species research.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[MaxPower]

I have tested everything today to make sure things are alright and there is clearly some movement in the NitrAtes which I assume is promising.

The tank however is getting green is this normal at this stage of the process? I know the ammonia and light cause it so I have closed the blinds and intend to keep them closed for the time being. I guess this will can all be cleared at the end with the large water change.

Thanks.

 

[waterdrop]

Are you running any tank lights? Any live plants?

If not, you can really make it hard for the algae by attempting to "black out" the tank by taping heavy or multi-mil black plastic over any places where light might get in to the tank. A few weeks of this makes it really tough on the algae.

You are in only your first week, so all looks pretty normal so far. You measured your starting ammonia pretty carefully, so we know its around 5ppm which is good, not too high. You would not expect it to have dropped all the way to zero in the first week unless you were lucky, but you've seen some of it used up which is good. You're seeing small amounts of nitrite(NO2) and nitrate(NO3) which is also a good sign.

The first milestone is really just to start getting to the point where ammonia is dropping to zero within 24 hours, rather than just sitting there for days, hardly going down. At about the same time, the next milestone might start appearing where nitrite(NO2) goes up from begin a trace to being multiple ppm readings and fairly quickly gets to the "nitrite spike" where everytime you read it, it is as high as the test can measure.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[MaxPower]

Quick and informative reply as always Waterdrop. No lighting and no live plants yet, I may give the blackout a go tomorrow a friend at work is giving me an API test kit which apparently has a slightly better accuracy than the Nutrafin one i'm using so I will remeasure everything when he brings it in.

If I have anymore questions rest assured I know where to come but for now I have all the information I need. Patience is clearly the key at this stage.

 

[waterdrop]

Will be interested to hear your comparison between the API and Nutrafin kits. My own rough take after listening to dozens of comments of feedback from users here is that these two kits are too much alike to really call one or the other, both seem more or less equally accurate/inaccurate, with just little differences in use. There are a couple of other liquid kits out there (interpet, redsea? perhaps spring to mind) that have seemed to have a few more problems than these top two. Then there are the Salifert tests, which are probably more accurate, if anything, but are supposedly a bit more involved in procedure and as such sometimes judged a bit more involved and perhaps expensive than needed for the fishless cycling job. For some other investigative tasks those might be better though. All of these liquid ones are felt to be vastly better than using paper strips.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[MaxPower]

Hello again everyone. Since the last update I have put a cover over the tank, no further algae but it hasen't got rid of the existing stuff; not a problem at the moment. Latest update now in my OP. Just wondering if an experienced individual could take a look at my readings and answer another couple of questions.

Are my readings what you would expect at this stage? should my nitrates be as high as they are at this point? Any actions I should take?

Still no sign of the API test kit but the guy at work said I could have all his equipment as he no longer has an aquarium.

Thanks once again.

 

[MaxPower]

I decided to turn up my heater this morning as although the heater was reading 28deg my thermometer reads a consistant 26deg, which one do you think is inaccurate? I have bumped the heater up to 30 to see if it makes any difference.

While doing this i noticed something squirming about in the tank. I'm not paincing as I don't have any fish yet but I wondered if anyone can identify it and tell me whether its anything to worry about? I have looked through the hitchhikers thread but couldn't identify it from that. I think it came in on the bogwood as I pulled something similar off the bogwood but thought it was just a piece of the wood. The wood was scrubbed and soaked for a week before going into the aqaurium so it would have got onto the wood at this time when it was outside.

edit: forgot image

 

[MaxPower]

I have just found a few more of these little things in my tank, can someone confirm what they are?

 

[MaxPower]

Finally some promising looking figures. I am getting frustrated looking at everyone elses tanks and fish and researching.

Can anyone shed any light on the above question?

 

[OldMan47]

Your tank chemistry is coming along nicely now. It looks like the nitrite processing bacteria are even starting to get moving now.
I have no idea what that hitchhiker is though.