Mature Media Donation

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TheJ0kerrr

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Alright, so I think I found a friend who has a 6" goldfish in a 20 gallon who could give me part of his filter media to help kickstart my fish-in cycle. I cannot garantee his tank is maintained by the book nor that his fish is 100% healthy... what I know is that it's been alive for 4-5 years in there.

Now, do I risk anything by using half of his sponge? How should I proceed to minimize the risks and maximize the results?

Right now, I have 3 WCMM in a 10 gallon and I can only read ammonia at or under 0.25ppm doing regular water changes to keep it like that. No nitrites nor nitrates after almost 7 weeks, which is why I want to use a mature media.
 
This is one of the rarely talked about sides of seeding a tank with media to aid in cycling. While what were are looking for is the nitrifying bacteria, this does not mean it is the only thing that is there. So it is possible that there could be diseases and/or parasites in it. What I am talking about here is potential. This means it is possible but not necessarily the case. There is no way to know for sure 100%.

The odds tend to favor there not being problems, but this is not a guarantee. If you know the source of your seed media and have reason to believe the donation came from a healthy tank, then your odds are better. If you are still worried, then perhaps the solution that is best for you is to try one of the bacterial starters. Contrary to what some folks on fish sites may say to the contrary, they do work and there is good science behind why they do.

The benefit to using a product like Tetra's Safe Start or Dr. Tims One and Only is that they are bacteria cultured especially for this pripose and the odds of there being nasties in the bottle as there can be in borrowed media from another tank is minimal. I had to use such a product to make a tank as safe as posible to receive wild fish from very acid waters. Because they had minimal natural resistence to common things found in most tanks, I could not risk media which might have nasties hitchiking in. If you elect to give one of these two products a try, please be sure to follow the instructions to the letter. Most folks who fail using these products do so because they failed to do this.

Lastly, most of the tropical fish we buy have been farm or tank raised. So they often have natural resistence to the most common tank ailments. This mitigates the potential for problems with seeding from other tanks to a great extent but there simply are no guarantees.
 
Good point thet Twotank, but I have donated media plenty of times in the past & if I had sick fish I would not be stupid enough to donate, neither would the rest of our community.


"If you are still worried, then perhaps the solution that is best for you is to try one of the bacterial starters. Contrary to what some folks on fish sites may say to the contrary, they do work and there is good science behind why they do."


Please elaborate on the good science bit?



Tom
 
I used media from a chain store which was very very questionable with the huge load of fish and they have ich outbreaks all the time. However using some of your friends is a much smaller risk. I would use your instincts and do what feels right.
 
By good science I mean several things:

1. The proper bacteria needed have been correctly identified and will be what is found in the brands that work. There are many published studies on this. One of the most important discoveries is that different bacteria will dominate a system based on the general ammonia levels. Another way to state this is ammonia levels select for the specific ammonia oxidizing bacteria which will work best in that situation. This doesnt mean other strains may not be present, only that they are relegated to a lesser role. That is why it is rare to find the ones that handle large ammonia doses in tanks longer term. They may be there if ammonia levels are high enough at the outset, but they wont last.

2. Science has shown over and over that the nitrifiers do not die quickly nor easily when they are subjected to periods of no food and low oxygen levels. They can basically shut down and go into sort of hibernation and wait for better conditions to revive. The healthier and stronger they are at the point they have to do this, the longer they can last. If you want I can provide you with links to multiple studies on this none of which are in any way connected to the companies that bottle and sell these products nor the scientists involved with the products. You can find this about more than just tank strains, it also applies to waste water treatment, drinking water treatment and aquaculture. I can link you to a good abstract which shows nitrifiers being kept dormant for 7 months and regaining full capacity within 11 days of being "revived". The heterotrophic bacteria did not fare as well and took 16 days to get back up to par.

3. Even when they have been kept in the bottle for a long time they can still be revived. it can take longer. So an old bottle past its prime can still do more good than no seeding of any kind at all. I can link you to studies which show nitrifiers surviving in dry soil for decades. There is a difference between having viable bacteria that can be revived over time and having fresh seed material from an established tank. The former will reactivate and recolonize a lot slower than the fresh bio-media. However, this is not the same as saying they are all completely dead and useless.

4. Many of the problems associated with the initial products, aside from being the wrong bacteria, were because the bacteria should be grown on a substrate of some sort which they now are. When you shake the bottle and pour them out you can see this- it almost looks like chalky clumps. This is not to be confused with substrate references which are directed at what they eat like ammonia etc. A better understanding of this can be obtained from reading about biofilms and extracellular polymeric substances (EPS) in relation to how the bacteria live.

5. Many of the folks who have problems getting the products to perform as advertised are at fault for failing to follow the directions rather than the product not being any good.

6. Public aquariums with tanks of 2 million or more gallons rely on these products for their exhibits. Does anybody believe a public aquarium is going the spend the money to cycle 2 million gallons of salt water using one of these products and then fill the tank soon after with live dolphins? While we argue over cycling issues in our small tanks, the people in charge of such aquariums are not risking their own job or the public relations disaster a tank full of dead dolphins would bring. While this isn't science it sure make a lot of sense.

There are a lot of research studies out there which will all support the above. I have read a ton of them and, trust me, they can make your head spin. I have posted references and quotes from a lot of them in many of my posts on this site. I could post a list of 20 or 30 you should read if you want to start to get a really good handle on things. But how many members would actually have the time or desire to read through them all. That is for nuts like me.
 
I welcome your links to reputable research TTA, but please provide it in a thread in the scientific section. This section is to help new people get started, not to argue about methods and confuse them. Nor is it a suitable place for the debate you are starting.
 
I welcome your links to reputable research TTA, but please provide it in a thread in the scientific section. This section is to help new people get started, not to argue about methods and confuse them. Nor is it a suitable place for the debate you are starting.

Agreed. Many, many discussions have been started and have become quite heated regarding these products with headway being made in neither direction.

Having observed these discussions unfold, I have learned that even with all the scientific breakthroughs, new fishkeepers still have trouble with bottled bacterial additives.

With success rates being less than I would like to see, I would be hesitant to recommend new fishkeepers placing their hope and money in them.
 
I've used fish store media as well as media from my own tanks to immediately jumpstart cycles in all my tanks. There's always a risk but then again, I wouldn't takle media from a tank that had any problems either.

I wouldn't place too much hope in the store bought bottled bacteria but I wouldn't discount it either. I tried it in my desperation when I added the fish store bac & I think it did help. I was hedging my bets a bit but why not have 2 fighters in the fight if they're available?

If your friend's Goldfish has been alive for 4-5 years with no recent problems then you should be okay using some of his media. The biggest problem I see is that his bacteria is used to a lower temperature than most tropical fish like. They can adapt but it's better if they adapt slowly without a big swing in temp.

I welcome your links to reputable research TTA, but please provide it in a thread in the scientific section. This section is to help new people get started, not to argue about methods and confuse them. Nor is it a suitable place for the debate you are starting.


It's just a single post & Aqua Tom did ask him................just saying. It was interesting and the threadstarter was looking for options right?
 
I welcome your links to reputable research TTA, but please provide it in a thread in the scientific section. This section is to help new people get started, not to argue about methods and confuse them. Nor is it a suitable place for the debate you are starting.

I'd love to see this continue in the scientific section. Not only does it make for some confusion here, it leaves some very interesting ideas, discussions and links hidden in a section where they are much less likely to be found when they could make for a very interesting topic in the proper section.
 
There have been some good points in this thread regarded TwoTankAmin. I see your posts all over the place, but when I was very, very new to fishkeeping, your approach would be very overwhelming. I would also like to be reading threads of yours in the scientific section. They are very interesting, and because you use research to back up your points, I really start to think. A new person would probably have a harder time taking in all of that information, when all they want to know is if they can use some goldfish filter media.
 
A scientific section challenge has been posted by TTA if you are interested. Just go there to see how this evolves. Meanwhile, what can we do to help you in a more traditional manner?
 

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