Lots Of Algae

[waterdrop]

So what are the most practical ways for beginners to begin to attack these three triggers: light, CO2 and ammonia?

For learning purposes, can I ask you to isolate the ammonia lesson first? Suppose a beginner has lights that fall within a rough range that could be accepted as "low light technique" (the equiv of between 0.9 and 1.8 w/g T12 lets say) and is sticking to "easy" java ferns and some swords and such and is not doing anything about CO2 at all yet. What measures would an experienced planted person take in that situation to minimize ammonia triggering algae?

I'm guessing one suggestion would be to first of all have plenty of plants, that having lots of plants would serve to more quickly take up unmeasurable but small spikes in ammonia. Would that be significant? Would regular gravel-cleans to keep debris caused ammonia from getting a start be on the side of being good or would they be bad??

Secondly, the CO2 issue. Isn't it the case that experienced planted members think it is entirely possible to do mostly algae free, good slow growth average displays -without- CO2? Do the liquid carbon products significantly help this attempt?

OK, I'll stop there with my beginner stumblings...

~~waterdrop~~

 

[aaronnorth]

when starting a tank i use zeolite so it takes out the NH3, and perform 50% w/c every few days for the 1st few weeks.

 

[Dave Spencer]

So what are the most practical ways for beginners to begin to attack these three triggers: light, CO2 and ammonia?

For learning purposes, can I ask you to isolate the ammonia lesson first? Suppose a beginner has lights that fall within a rough range that could be accepted as "low light technique" (the equiv of between 0.9 and 1.8 w/g T12 lets say) and is sticking to "easy" java ferns and some swords and such and is not doing anything about CO2 at all yet. What measures would an experienced planted person take in that situation to minimize ammonia triggering algae?

People may have ? WPG and think they are low light. Why? Because the vague WPG says so.

All of a sudden, you are getting algae without changing anything. If it is BBA or staghorn, then it is safe to say that there is not enough carbon available to your plants. The carbon deficiency will be a result of light levels driving growth beyond the carbon available, making it a limiting nutrient. Chuck the WPG rule out of the window and believe what the algae is telling you. The solution is either Flourish Excel, CO2 injection or reduce the light levels.

A source of ammonia could either be substrate distrubance, through planting for example, not backed up by a couple of large water changes to remove the background ammonia. Maybe the tank is overstocked, with a lot of fish waste derived ammonia.

I'm guessing one suggestion would be to first of all have plenty of plants, that having lots of plants would serve to more quickly take up unmeasurable but small spikes in ammonia. Would that be significant? Would regular gravel-cleans to keep debris caused ammonia from getting a start be on the side of being good or would they be bad??

High light/high growth densely planted tanks are very efficient at removing ammonia from the water column. Hi tech tanks run with bacteria colonies that are far less in number than types of set up. Husbandry is important for all genre of the hobby.

So what are the most practical ways for beginners to begin to attack these three triggers: light, CO2 and ammonia?

Here is what I do:
Zeolite as the last stage of filtration.
Very high filter turn over aimed at moving nutrients all around the furthest corners of the tank.
Mature filter media.
Purigen.
High CO2 initially, before adding any fauna.
Use fast growing stems in an immature tank.
Daily 50% water changes for the first two weeks, decreasing to 50% per week over the next two or three weeks.

The most important aspect is to control light levels from the outset. I start with six hours of half light, with a full light burst for two hours. This is slowly increased over the next month or two until ten hours with a six hour full light burst is reached. Modify the lighting to what the algae is telling you.

Most of my experience is with faster growth planted tanks where cycling is virtually non existent. For beginners, use plenty of fast growing stems at first and dose Flourish excel as a carbon supplement.
Secondly, the CO2 issue. Isn't it the case that experienced planted members think it is entirely possible to do mostly algae free, good slow growth average displays -without- CO2? Do the liquid carbon products significantly help this attempt?

The sooner it is learnt what causes algae, the easier it is to observe what is going on and react accordingly. Algae is a great indicator in the aquarium. As are plants and fauna.

Dave.

 

[Corleone]

do you inject CO2 with the EI method?

Yes, I do. When I didn't, I only got cyanobacteria and a small amount of black beard algae.

 

[waterdrop]

I am confused about how the liquid carbons like Flourish Excel (there's another sometimes cheaper one too I believe?) compare or don't compare to CO2 injection.

Is it that dosing with liquid carbons can't be as steady and even a dose as the injection can? I can picture that any time you don't use injection (including when you are using liquid) perhaps you are susceptible to wider fluctuations that come with CO2 balance from water surface activity and day/night differences, perhaps that's significant.

I'm liking the sound of liquid carbons for non-CO2-injection-tanks more and more.

Why do you like Purigen, what do consider its functions to be and how does it acheive them?

Is the use of both Flourish and Flourish Excel together incomplete without the 3 main fertilizers (for example Seachem's liquid Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Potassium?) (I know these are expensive and most planted people mix up dry ferts but for beginners with small tanks these might be good while they figure out the seemingly arcane complications of finding, buying, understanding and mixing dry ferts.)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Dave Spencer]

I am confused about how the liquid carbons like Flourish Excel (there's another sometimes cheaper one too I believe?) compare or don't compare to CO2 injection.

~~waterdrop~~

Plants preference for carbon is, without reading up to remind myself:

1. Via gaseous CO2
2. Via aqueous CO2
3. Via organic carbon such as Excel, Easycarbo or the substrate.

Have you ever noticed how much more your plants pearl after a water change? This is because some of them will have been exposed to the atmosphere and acquired a lot of gaseous CO2. It is also why using a ceramic diffuser is still the most effecient method, as the minute CO2 bubbles come in to contact with the leaves and get trapped.

A lot of us are moving away from ceramic difuusers in order to minimise the hardware in the tank. Large, high light tanks with a high plant mass will have a high demand for carbon, so pressurised CO2 is the only viable method for delivering carbon in non limiting quantities. In lower light tanks, DIY or liquid carbon should suffice.

CO2 is the biggest variable in planted tank, and the biggest cause of algae. It is easy to get right with very little effort, and the results far outweigh what effort is required to get it right.

Dave.

 

[waterdrop]

really nice, very clear explanation -- thank you!

So what I'm hearing you say is that yes, there *is* a qualitative preference that plants seem to have (1.gaseous,2.aqueous,3.excel/easycarbo) but that beginners with lower light, fewer plants, will often have an aquascape that is demanding less carbon and so the excel/easycarb may provide enough to do the job (yes, know I'm repeating what you just said.. just trying to absorb it, lol)

Keeping in the back of our minds that "the whole" is important in algae control, let's try to rank the individual "problem triggers" then:
1) CO2 <-- biggest variable, biggest cause of algae
2) Light <-- next biggest
3) Other plant nutrients besides CO2 (ie. ferts, is there a ranking in your mind if we were to break these out individually?)

And, thinking about ferts in our lower light beginner tank, let's say we're going to dose with all 5 Seachem bottles:
Flourish (for traces), Flourish Excel (for carbon), Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium
Is that going to be pretty complete, pretty essential (from the ferts standpoint?)

~~greenwater~~

 

[aaronnorth]

biggest cause IMO is ammonia spikes, to often when someone rescapes their tank without doing a large (80%) w/c will get algae within the next few days.

ferts wise why not go for Tropica plant nutrition+, it contains everything that you have luisted but will probably come to half price, available at Aqua essentials & the green machine.

 

[waterdrop]

But are those USA available?

Oh, I'm glad you've said this about the ammonia spikes, so what you are saying is that when one disturbs the substrate and thus anticipates ammonia will be stirred up, one should consider doing a -larger- water change in order to further dilute the ammonia (all of this even though I presume we are talking about tanks that actually would measure zero ammonia on tests if we did them, right?)

I've been a bit caught up worrying about the dilemma of water changes being so good on a regular basis for the fish, but hearing that the stirring up of ammonia keeps being seen as a significant algae trigger and wondering how you guys handle it...

~~waterdrop~~

 

[aaronnorth]

But are those USA available?

it is but very rare, AE ship worldwide though, i suppose it depends on how much it costs. Goiing by seachem then, if you have a hi tec set up, then get the NPK & normal flourish (not trace - it is a watered down version of flourish!!!) if it is low tec, then just get flourish as this will suffice.

Oh, I'm glad you've said this about the ammonia spikes, so what you are saying is that when one disturbs the substrate and thus anticipates ammonia will be stirred up, one should consider doing a -larger- water change in order to further dilute the ammonia (all of this even though I presume we are talking about tanks that actually would measure zero ammonia on tests if we did them, right?)

yes, to remove mmonia also. ammonia is never 0, it is just that our test kits cant detect it.

 

[waterdrop]

wait, maybe I'm being stupid, tropica plant nutrition.. various products with that name, do indeed seem to be available at common USA aquarium websites..

a little confusing because the liquid ones don't seem to say the "+", just the ones that look like they must be capsules to put under roots.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[aaronnorth]

tropica plant nutrtion+ - (liquid) contains NPK & trrace, ideal for lighter stocked aquariums & higher tec.

tropica plant nutrition - (liquid) conatains K & trace, ideal for heaveir stocked tanks as fish produce most of the N&P, and also lower tec.

tropica root tab capsules - (solid), ideal to put at the base of heavy root feeders, although no need if you have a nutrient rich substrate.

 

[Dave Spencer]

When it comes to nutrient deficiencies and algae, there is no real heirarchy that I can detect. NPK are the usual suspects simply because they are in greatest demand and, therefore, most likely to become deficient. However, a Molybdenum deficiency will produce unhealthy plants, which then results in ammonia leaching out of your plants. Hopefully, the next part is becoming well known......algae.

Dosing ferts to non limiting amounts is easy. Getting carbon to non limiting amounts is more difficult, and more likely to be an algae trigger than other nutrients due, as per NPK, to it being a nutrient that is voraciously consumed in an environment of high plant growth. Adding carbon can give increased growth rates up to a factor of ten in the right environment.

People go down the DIY route thinking it is simpler than pressurised. In terms of the technicalities of putting the two systems together, it is. In terms of growing healthy, algae free planted tanks, it is way more difficult than pressurised. Ask anyone that has made the leap from DIY to pressurised.

There is a heirarchy for growth rates which is:

Light
Carbon
Nitrogen
Phosphorus
Potassium
Trace elements (iron, magnesium etc.)

Adding too much light is the easiest way to cause algae. Rapidly growing plants quickly increase their nutrient uptake, which can lead to a deficiency of one or more nutrient. A carbon deficiency is the next, and most usual cause of algae in our tanks. The thing to bare in mind is that all of the factors above result in plants leaching ammonia.

Tank maintenance, as mentioned by Aaron, is great for releasing ammonia in to the water column. Any planthead worth there salt will know that they have to carry out large water changes for a period after any major removal of plant mass or substrate distrubance. My fish often go through daily 50% water changes after a rescape with no ill effects. Anyone with Otos may have noticed how they seek out the stream of colder water when it is being added to the tank.

Remember that removing plant mass means a reduction in ammonia removal from the water column. Plants preferred source of N is ammonia.

Keep a tank in total darkness and it will never grow algae. Keep a tank 100% ammonia free (practically impossible) and you will never see algae. This is why any of my new set ups have daily 50% water changes and Zeolite. A lot of what I do flies in the face of perceived wisdom at times, but I go with what I can observe and surmise from my own tanks....plus a totally new outlook and the motivation to think for myself given to me, and others, by Tom Barr.

Dave.

 

[waterdrop]

First let me thank you again Dave and Aaron for your continued patience with us newbies and the high quality of your teaching. I frequently enjoy going back and reading your many threads on TFF and then making some notes to myself in my aquarium logbook. It gives me a distant hope of gaining some green on my thumb someday.

This particular post has made me sit up and take notice about the plants actually -giving off- ammonia when they have some deficiency in their nutrients. I had somehow missed that fact in the past. You mean they give off ammonia under these conditions despite the fact that they are not dying per say (ie. don't show signs necessarily of gross decline?) This is quite an interesting thing to know!

It plays quite nicely into what Aaron's saying about ammonia being such a common algae trigger... so there are even *more* ways for ammonia to unexpectedly get in there and be a trigger, quite fascinating!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[aaronnorth]

I am still not 100% certain on everything, but i know the basics.