Keeping Neos and multiple Caridina species in one tank

[abandon_ship]

Pardon the novel...

I've had a thought on how to incorporate multiple species of shrimp into one habitat so that one could get a "skittles" effect, without cross breeding. This would lead to longevity of pure strains in the tank and in theory reduce culls. Ideally, shrimps would be healthy and able to reproduce. Information on parameters is all over the place with different breeders doing what works for them. I've included citations to breeder pages I've gathered data from. There do seem to be some overlaps that could work with a few caveats. Below I will go into detail on my findings and extrapolations I've made.


OE Yellow Devils (Caridina cantonensis)
-Possible cross between OEBT (Tiger) and Yellow KK (Tibee)
-Yellow King Kong is described as one of the more hardy Caridinas
-Orange Eye Blue Tigers have been kept in Neo parameters. Therefore with the possible heavy tiger influence, I've theorized their parameters closer to that of a OEBT.

• Temperature: 66–72°F
• pH: 6 – 7.4
• kH (Carbonate Hardness): 0–5 dKH
• gH (General Hardness): 4–12 dGH
• TDS (Total Dissolved Solids): 200-300
• Parameter Source: Shrimp Ambition (OEBT)

Neo Blue Jellies (Neocaridina davidi)
-Bred from Blue Rili
-Possibly slightly less hardy than other Neos

• Temperature: 65–85°F, but they do best in the mid to upper 70s
• pH: 7 – 7.6
• kH (Carbonate Hardness): 4–5 dKH
• gH (General Hardness): 7–12 dGH
• TDS (Total Dissolved Solids): 200-300
• Parameter Source: Shrimp Ambition (Neo Blue Jelly)

Racoon Tiger (Caridina mariae)
-This may not be the species for the parameters I've listed
-Hardy Cardina and bred in Neo parameters

• Temperature: 66–72°F
• pH: 6 – 7.4
• kH (Carbonate Hardness): 0–5 dKH
• gH (General Hardness): 4–12 dGH
• TDS (Total Dissolved Solids): 200-300
• Parameter Source: Shrimp Ambition (Racoon Tiger)

Sulawesi White Sock (Caridina dennerli)
-One of the more hardy Sulawesi
-Some breeders say stability is more important than strict parameters
-Expanded parameters in graphs based on parameters of Snow Zebra Suluwesi

• Temperature: 78-85°F
• pH: 7.5-8
• KH(Carbonate Hardness): 4
• GH:(General Hardness): 6
• TDS (Total Dissolved Solids): 125
• Parameter Source: Shrimply Fintastic (Sulawesi White Sock) and Shrimp Ambition (Snow Zebra Suluwesi)

Obvious Issues:
-The most obvious issue will be the gap between the other Caridinas listed and the Sulawesi
-Strains will be bred under different breeder conditions and may not acclimate as theorized
-Overlaps for some parameters would push species to extreme end of water parameters
-Expansion of parameters for Sulawesi White Socks may be exaggerated on my part
-Assumption of OE Yellow Devil parameters may be exaggerated on my part
-Over-crowding and crashes due to different shrimp breeding speeds and diets

Conclusion:
I would like to hear from those of you in the shrimp community that have kept any of the mentioned varieties in more "extreme" water parameters (especially lower temps for Sulawesi or higher temps for Caridina). Below I've graphed my finding and assumptions for ease of comparison.

 

[MaloK]

Well, You did your homework !!!

The only thing I would say that I'm not agreeing on your research, is the GH parameters, All the shrimps you have listed will do a lot better in lower GH even the Neo at (4-5) dGH will have less problems and grow bigger with more beautiful shell. With a GH of 6-7 I experienced darker colors and more rugged shells, but it was accompanied with calcium molting issue, shortened lives and stunted growth. The shells becomes too hard and the shrimp are unable to leave them.

I know many will say that it's KH the most important parameter, But I differ, They are all "really soft water" beings. And the general hardness is also a crucial parameter.

The sweet KH spot looks for me to be between 4-5 dKH for nearly every freshwater shrimps and I have to regularly add more to maintain this level. This concurs spot on with your findings.

I only use PH test to asses the toxicity of the nitrogen cycle if needed and that's all. I leave it as is.

TDS values are pretty good to assess the water condition, But it need some overhead because of all the dissolved matter other than minerals the water of an established tank will contain.

Also agree with your temperature parameters.

So... imo, your project has good bases to work.

Next will be fun to see how all these species interacts with each other.

 

[abandon_ship]

Well, You did your homework !!!

The only thing I would say that I'm not agreeing on your research, is the GH parameters, All the shrimps you have listed will do a lot better in lower GH even the Neo at (4-5) dGH will have less problems and grow bigger with more beautiful shell. With a GH of 6-7 I experienced darker colors and more rugged shells, but it was accompanied with calcium molting issue, shortened lives and stunted growth. The shells becomes too hard and the shrimp are unable to leave them.

I know many will say that it's KH the most important parameter, But I differ, They are all "really soft water" beings. And the general hardness is also a crucial parameter.

The sweet KH spot looks for me to be between 4-5 dKH for nearly every freshwater shrimps and I have to regularly add more to maintain this level. This concurs spot on with your findings.

I only use PH test to asses the toxicity of the nitrogen cycle if needed and that's all. I leave it as is.

TDS values are pretty good to assess the water condition, But it need some overhead because of all the dissolved matter other than minerals the water of an established tank will contain.

Also agree with your temperature parameters.

So... imo, your project has good bases to work.

Next will be fun to see how all these species interacts with each other.

Right now I'm cycling with Dr. Tim's ammonia chloride and fluval cycle. I've been establishing the tank since Mid-December. I wound up getting around 100 bucks worth of plants from aquarium plant factory (awesome quality btw). My plan is to get the cycle well establish and let the plants root in before starting anything. Also got a good biofilm going on, probably mostly diatoms, for the white socks.

I'm kind of lucky with my well water. Chlorine at .6ppm (will use prime for that), 7.6 pH, 1.2 nitrate, 4-5gH, 4-5 kH.

gH is a little low for sulawesi, but I have been wondering if I could find a breeder that has a lower gH line... My plan is to start with neos (easy-peasy) then move to the sulawesi. I'm just not sure that the other caridina species will fair well in the warmer water (tanks at 78F).

I'd prefer to have everyone happy and breeding/molting properly, so I might just stick to the warmer water ones. I wish there was a warm water yellow shrimp that wouldn't interbreed with the blue neos...

 

[MaloK]

It take a long time to test water parameters, days to modify, then months to see the effects. The only time it goes fast is when it doesn't go well.

Atm I use allegedly "professional" grade shrimp mineral mix with RO/DI water and after mixing the water ends up with 7 dGH and 4 dKH and the shrimps living in those parameters are small even adults are 3/4" or less and they look thick and stiff.

In my second test tank I keep the water at 4.5 dGH and 4 dKH, The shrimps are growing bigger and looks a lot more flexible when they swim. It seems like a too strong exoskeleton is not beneficial for these shrimps.

Somehow the GH affects the way the shrimps are able to process calcium carbonate, is my understanding.

Now I'm slowly lowering the GH in my main tank. To match this. Another week to adjust then a couple months to see if the desired effect occurs.

The plants take even longer to adapt.

 

[abandon_ship]

It take a long time to test water parameters, days to modify, then months to see the effects. The only time it goes fast is when it doesn't go well.

Atm I use allegedly "professional" grade shrimp mineral mix with RO/DI water and after mixing the water ends up with 7 dGH and 4 dKH and the shrimps living in those parameters are small even adults are 3/4" or less and they look thick and stiff.

In my second test tank I keep the water at 4.5 dGH and 4 dKH, The shrimps are growing bigger and looks a lot more flexible when they swim. It seems like a too strong exoskeleton is not beneficial for these shrimps.

Somehow the GH affects the way the shrimps are able to process calcium carbonate, is my understanding.

Now I'm slowly lowering the GH in my main tank. To match this. Another week to adjust then a couple months to see if the desired effect occurs.

The plants take even longer to adapt.

The way I understand it is GH measures dissolved divalent metals, with calcium being the most important in shrimp aquariums. Divalent metals (like calcium and magnesium) are positively charged and tend to pair with negatively charged ions, like carbonates. KH measures dissolved carbonates and bicarbonates (alkalinity) in the water and indicates the water’s resistance to acidification (buffering capacity). pH measures how much free hydrogen (H+) is available in the water.

Imagine you could see the molecules in water. Calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is semi-soluble (think chalk) and becomes less soluble as acidity decreases (higher pH). In more acidic water, CaCO3 dissolves into calcium ions (Ca+) and carbonate ions (CO3-). You’d see some calcium ions physically separated from carbonate ions. There’s a constant equilibrium between hydrogen and carbon compounds in the water (CO2 ↔ HCO3- ↔ CO3-), which shifts back and forth as temperature and free hydrogen changes. This means hydrogen ions are sometimes available and sometimes not.

Acids are also ionic, like vinegar. In water, they release hydrogen ions (H+), lowering the pH. When acids react with CaCO3, the carbonate binds with hydrogen to form carbon dioxide gas (CO2), water, and free calcium ions in the water. This is why mixing baking soda and vinegar fizzes, it releases CO₂ gas and leaves behind sodium acetate and water.

Here’s the reaction:
CaCO3 + 2 H → Ca2 (free floating) + CO2 (gas) + H2O (free floating, lol)

Compare this with sugar, which has covalent bonds. If you could see sugar in water, you’d just see intact sugar molecules, not ions.

To raise GH, you could add salts like calcium nitrate or magnesium sulfate (which would cause different issues). This would increase the hard part of the water but not the alkalinity. KH on the other hand, comes from negatively charged carbonates or bicarbonates, which are typically paired with metals or hydrogen when dry.

Shrimp use free-floating calcium ions (Ca+) from the water to build their shells, so pH might play a role in calcium availability. If the water isn’t acidic enough, calcium can stay bound to carbonate as CaCO3 (more chalk-like and less soluble) rather than breaking up into ions. Maybe that's why a lot of shrimp prefer slightly acidic water. The CaCO3 would dissolve more readily, increasing the bioavailability of calcium for shell development.

 

[MaloK]

Without going too deep in water chemistry, Understanding how to maintain equilibrium is pretty basic with available tests. And with a little investment you can go a little further, not much (investment and further) . The tolerance level in readings is pretty loose compared to lab equipment.

But it's more than enough to have a lot of fun.

When you wrap your head around it...

[1] HCO3−⇔CO32−+H+
[2] H2CO3⇔HCO3−+H+
[3] CO2(aq)+H2O⇔H2CO3
[4] CO2(g)⇔CO2(aq)
[5] H2CO3+OH−⇔HCO3−+H2O
[6] HCO3−+OH−+CO32−+H2O

It's easy,

I can post the whole process in detail. But it makes me to look at it.

 

[abandon_ship]

Without going too deep in water chemistry, Understanding how to maintain equilibrium is pretty basic with available tests. And with a little investment you can go a little further, not much (investment and further) . The tolerance level in readings is pretty loose compared to lab equipment.

But it's more than enough to have a lot of fun.

When you wrap your head around it...

[1] HCO3−⇔CO32−+H+
[2] H2CO3⇔HCO3−+H+
[3] CO2(aq)+H2O⇔H2CO3
[4] CO2(g)⇔CO2(aq)
[5] H2CO3+OH−⇔HCO3−+H2O
[6] HCO3−+OH−+CO32−+H2O

It's easy,

I can post the whole process in detail. But it makes me to look at it.

Do you think the issue with GH is more that the calcium is unavailable due to a more alkaline pH? I.e. too much KH

My heads starting to spin lol

 

[MaloK]

I think the higher GH cause an higher input of carbonates in shells from osmosis regulation.

 

[abandon_ship]

I think the higher GH cause an higher input of carbonates in shells from osmosis regulation.

That makes sense. I never thought about the shrimp shell itself being part of the equation.

 

[MaloK]

Once all the other equations resolved.

That one is simple: Shrimp+Food=(Group - Males) power 20

S+F=(G-M)^20