Just My Bad Luck Or Potential Advice To Noobs ?

[SlyT]

All,

I am in the process of cycling my tank and my experience may show I have done something wrong, or alternatively be a lesson to others.

I have put quite a lot of plants in my tank (about £70 worth). It has been mentioned in the forums that you can cycle a tank as normal if its planted, which is what I have been doing, i.e. using 4ppm of ammonia to force the growth of the ammonia -> nitrite bacteria.

What I have found is that many of the plants are being burned or killed off by the high levels of ammonia. As a result all of the grasses along the back of my tank look dead. In addition a few of my mid and foreground plants also look they might be dead also.

Whilst nitrites are now present, my ammonia levels are still around 4ppm, this is without me adding any more ammonia to the tank. I assume this is due to the decomposition of the plant matter. With nitrites off the chart now, the levels of ammonia being produced by the tank itself must now be very high.

Either I am suffering poor luck, or alternatively the advice should be that you should not add such high levels of ammonia at the outset to your tank. In retrospect, I believe that the levels of ammonia should be built up gradually in line with the bacteria development. Initially a dose of 1-2ppm of amonia should be added and no more until the tank has cleared this completely. Once the tank can clear the ammonia in 36-24 hours should you build up to 3ppm and then 4ppm. This would reduce the risk of killing off your plants.

I would be grateful for others comments or experience, however bear in mind that I have 3 buckets of substrate, and have been feeding the plants with fertilizer and liquid carbon. I cannot believe I have under provided for the plants and can only deduce that the high levels of ammonia have been too much for them.

Alex

PS I am happy to post some shots of the plants if others are interested. Also if there is any chance the plants are not dead, and it is just the leaves that are burnt, I would also be grateful for comment as I am not relishing the replanting of much of the tank.

A

Thanks to Wilder for suggesting I post this in the Plants and Planted Tanks forum as well as the New to the hobby forum

 

[three-fingers]

Pics would be appreciated .

I doubt they have been burnt, they are most likely just dying off as new leaves that emerge adaprt to the conditions of the tank.

Alternatively, you could have lot's of high-demand or non-aquatic species that are dying due to the conditions.

What lighting/flow rate does the tank have?

Though TBH I can't testify that 4ppm of ammonia wont harm plants (I have no idea), but if you have £70 worth of plants and all the conditions are right for these species, they should really be using up some of this ammonia .

 

[Slyspy]

I'm currently cycling my planted 180l and have not experienced any unusual damage to my plants. All I have is a bit of algae. It was about a fortnight before the bacteria were sufficient to consume 4ppm of ammonia. The nitrites were through the roof for weeks but are now coming down so hopefully all will soon be ready. Although some plants are clearly not at their best (probably due to them being fairly new) some are doing really rather well. None appear "burnt".

 

[aaronnorth]

ammonia + light = algae.

you are in risk of getting lots of algae, which may kill you plants if it takes over. Plants can use ammonia as a source of nitrogen, but it is still a toxin at high levels so it could be killing your plants.

By the sounds of it you have filled your tank heavily with plants, so i would be inclined to do a "silent cycle". This is where you dont add any ammonia, and stock lightly (say with a few tetras). Any ammonia produced will be used by the fish, and the rest will go towards the filter bacteria. You should also do 2 x 50% water changes per week.

WWith all of the above coupled together the ammonia levels will be low, the fish will be safe, and over time the filte will become cycled
pics would help

 

[SlyT]

I dont really seem to have any algae. However some of the plants are fairing worse than others.

Almost all of the grasses appear dead (See below)

And the Peace Lilly & a misc plant (its got green leaves with pinks round the top edge of each leaf)

 

[aaronnorth]

And the Peace Lilly & a misc plant (its got green leaves with pinks round the top edge of each leaf)

they are non-aquatic.

we also need to know:

tank size
lighting (watts and T5/ T8 etc)
fertilisers?
CO2 or liquid carbon?
substrate?

It may be that you have high lighting and the plants cant get enough Carbon or nutrients to keep up with growth demands so in turn they are dieing.

 

[Amunet]

Looks like the grassy plant might be vallis.
We also got some of that while our tank cycled and most of it died on us. Ended up looking exactly what you have in that photo.
We still have a few left though.
No idea if the high amount of ammonia was the reason for it dying though *shrugs* All our other plants were perfectly fine while fishless cycling though and I never saw a spot of algae the entire time. Probably helped that we had crappy lighting though, BUT the room gets a lot of sunlight.

I personally would not do a "silent cycle" since you're already in the middle of cycling your tank AND having problems with your plants.

 

[SlyT]

Right for info,

300litre 4ft bowfront tank
2x T5 Lighting (1x 30W Red & 1x40w Bright White)
18kg of Tetra Plant Substrate
35kg of Silica Sand
Initally put in Tetra Ferts, but now got TPN+
Aqua Essentials own brand Liquid Carbon

I am dissapointed if those plants are not aquatic, as I bought them from my LFS from a water tank as suitable for my tank.

The grasses were mainly from Pets at home.

I am planning on getting a new camera this week and will post photos of each plant I have as I am concerned that I may have recieved poor advice from my LFSs.

Thanks all for the comments thus far, I find this forum particulally useful for reassurance as when I see dead plants, I assume I have done something stupid !

A

 

[aaronnorth]

sounds like you have got everything covered I will put it down to ammonia poisoning, but someone else may have different opinions.

 

[three-fingers]

If the grassy plants were Vallisneria (as it looks to be), they can sometimes have this reaction when suddenly put into acidic water IME (what's your pH at?).

If your adding more liquid carbon than usual, that could also damage vallis (as it's quite sensitive to this). Regular amounts are fine and in some cases overdosing doesnt harm it, but I'd speculate this could be the result of acidic water, liquid carbon and the ammonia all at the same time.

I don't think it's all down to ammonia, your other plants look fine.

Non-aquatics are dying since they are non aquatic, it could have just been sped up by the ammonia.

 

[Craster]

I had absolutely no issues with my plants with a full 5ppm ammonia cycle in a 350l tank. Nor did I have any algae issues, but I concede that I was lucky in this.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, what's the story about Vallisneria? I've read things about it needing to be in particularly hard and basic water I thought, but I don't really know what plant-experienced people think about this plant. I think I remember that George Farmer mentioned this as an "easy plant" but said he'd never actually had it for not liking it? I've been avoiding it for lack of knowledge but I've very interested in the larger varieties for use in a tall tank.

I personally found the the "plant melting" issue with liquid carbon to be real. I had read the threads about it and so was ready for the possibility but it was really shocking how it completely melted my big red/brown crypt (wendtii) completely. I left the roots and crown in though and now it has come back with tons of new leaves. So liquid carbon really will melt plants but it varies a lot by species and it doesn't mean a plant won't be fine with it later.

I also wonder about pH/hardness shock? I was given an enormous mass of java ferns (the whole 9-yards of roots, rhizomes, mature leaves and baby leaflets springing out) that had been growing in a friend's aquarium that didn't have carbon or really any particular plant care at all. I don't know how different their water was. I brought it home to my soft acid aquarium (KH=0 or 1, pH 6.4 to 7.6) and it just about died en masse. Now, months later a small fraction of it is coming back. It really made me wonder the extent to which plants might react to various differences in a move, but to me, while that seems real, it seems hard to get a handle on.

I'm very surprised to hear the 4-5ppm ammonia thought of as poisoning the plants as we keep seeing so very many reports of tanks with lots of plants coming through those fishless cycles so well. Over in the beginner section we seem to get tons of reports like the Craster and SlySpy ones in this thread that the plants went through the 5ppm fishless cycle like a charm and looking great. But then we get some percentage of people with total brown-outs too, I'd almost put it at 70/30 (ie. it sometimes seems like 70% of the beginner reports are of plants doing ok and 30% where the plants do horribly.)

For a long time I kept getting an impression of association between the people with hard water that was not too acid seeming to have success despite the fact that they'd not yet been introduced to the ideas of CO2 sources or substrates, whereas the people like myself with soft/acid water were more often reporting immediate disasters. The problem with this sort of observation though is that the variables for these beginners is all over the place with different amounts of light, substrates, fertilization and everything, so I guess its almost impossible to draw any intelligent conclusions.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[SuperColey1]

Thats the first time I have ever heard about a Crypt melting from Liquid Carbon Are you sure it didnn't just melt as Crypts decide to do sometimes?

I never had any luck with Vals but it was one of those plants I used when I began and therfore haven't tried it with a 'working setup'

AC

 

[Craster]

My understanding is that Vallisnera are one of the few plants that can/like to take their carbon from carbonate ions in suspension. As a result, they tend to flourish in hard water. I am fairly sure this is a preference rather than a requirement though.

You raise an interesting point in the possibility of the pH of the water affecting the impact of ammonia on plants during a cycle - there is plenty of information out there about how plants in the aquarium will use ammonia as a nitrogen source, but I can't recall any of it containing specifics around whether there is a difference in uptake between ammonia in more acidic waters and ammonium in basic waters.

 

[aaronnorth]

Yes, what's the story about Vallisneria? I've read things about it needing to be in particularly hard and basic water I thought, but I don't really know what plant-experienced people think about this plant. I think I remember that George Farmer mentioned this as an "easy plant" but said he'd never actually had it for not liking it? I've been avoiding it for lack of knowledge but I've very interested in the larger varieties for use in a tall tank.

vallisneria can take over a tank pretty quickly, so he (and lots of other 'scapers) tend to use cyperus helferi instead which is much slower! Also less common.

Personally i cant get the stuff to grow!! (albeit extremely slowly)

I personally found the the "plant melting" issue with liquid carbon to be real. I had read the threads about it and so was ready for the possibility but it was really shocking how it completely melted my big red/brown crypt (wendtii) completely. I left the roots and crown in though and now it has come back with tons of new leaves. So liquid carbon really will melt plants but it varies a lot by species and it doesn't mean a plant won't be fine with it later.

Even the plants that react badly to liquid carbon should be ok with the reccomended dose. Once you go above the reccomendations you can startt to run into problems. it has been proven, mainly when people get algae issues or decide to see what will happen. Mark did this on "the Henge". He was using easycarbo with riccia but accidentally increased the dose and ended up killing the lot same with plants such as ambulia (limnophillia sessiliflora) and egeria densa.
The liquid carbon may not of been a direct result for the crypt melt, it might of been the change in water parameterrs that set it off.

I also wonder about pH/hardness shock? I was given an enormous mass of java ferns (the whole 9-yards of roots, rhizomes, mature leaves and baby leaflets springing out) that had been growing in a friend's aquarium that didn't have carbon or really any particular plant care at all. I don't know how different their water was. I brought it home to my soft acid aquarium (KH=0 or 1, pH 6.4 to 7.6) and it just about died en masse. Now, months later a small fraction of it is coming back. It really made me wonder the extent to which plants might react to various differences in a move, but to me, while that seems real, it seems hard to get a handle on.

plants can be shocked by different water parameters, but it isnt common. Your friends tank may of had a high kH, therefore the java fern was able to take bicarbonates out of the water for a source of carbon. As soon as this source is taken away, the plant has to either adapt to try and find another source, or use another source of energy to make RuBisCo but There are lots of variables.

I'm very surprised to hear the 4-5ppm ammonia thought of as poisoning the plants as we keep seeing so very many reports of tanks with lots of plants coming through those fishless cycles so well. Over in the beginner section we seem to get tons of reports like the Craster and SlySpy ones in this thread that the plants went through the 5ppm fishless cycle like a charm and looking great. But then we get some percentage of people with total brown-outs too, I'd almost put it at 70/30 (ie. it sometimes seems like 70% of the beginner reports are of plants doing ok and 30% where the plants do horribly.)

its a strange world... no two tanks are the same, so sometimes we have to generalise. Personally i cant see anything wrong with what the person has, except high ammonia & new plants.
there is the liquid carbon, but like i said above, i dont think it will be too much of a problem. And the other plants are browning. It is highly unlikley that they all are having bad reactions

For a long time I kept getting an impression of association between the people with hard water that was not too acid seeming to have success despite the fact that they'd not yet been introduced to the ideas of CO2 sources or substrates, whereas the people like myself with soft/acid water were more often reporting immediate disasters. The problem with this sort of observation though is that the variables for these beginners is all over the place with different amounts of light, substrates, fertilization and everything, so I guess its almost impossible to draw any intelligent conclusions.

like above, bicarbonates may play a big roll in this.

thanks.

My understanding is that Vallisnera are one of the few plants that can/like to take their carbon from carbonate ions in suspension. As a result, they tend to flourish in hard water. I am fairly sure this is a preference rather than a requirement though.

You raise an interesting point in the possibility of the pH of the water affecting the impact of ammonia on plants during a cycle - there is plenty of information out there about how plants in the aquarium will use ammonia as a nitrogen source, but I can't recall any of it containing specifics around whether there is a difference in uptake between ammonia in more acidic waters and ammonium in basic waters.

once the ammonium levels go above 0.5ppm plants stop using it and turn to Nitrates. Why i am not sure (i shall have to have a read to see if it says anything) but maybe it becomes to toxic.