It Will End In Tears

[frapadoodle]

Came home to the horror of a dead Panda. Sadly my girl.

For those across the pond who struggled last year with the heat and loss of fish I feel your pain. The devil called up here and wants his temperature back.

My tanks are now averaging 82°F/28°C. Most everyone else is okay, especially Falstaff, my Betta. But my two remaing Pandas are in a bad way.
I know many tricks for keeping tanks cool, but alas I am gone 11-12 hours during the hottest part of the day.

As the title says it'll end in tears.

 

[Vethian]

would evaporation cool the water?  running a fan over the surface?  Im asking as I have never tried it.  But, it would make sense.  

 

[frapadoodle]

It would help some, but even with lids it's been so dry evaporation is awful right now. Part of the problem is the tank is on a westward exterior wall. This past Winter three big oaks were cut down behind me, so no more afternoon shade, and the old airconditioner just can't keep up.

On a side note before anyone asks ammonia is 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm, nitrate 40ppm, pH 6.4.

 

[Vethian]

get a cheap fan.  get a Styrofoam cooler and some PVC piping.  cut a hole in the top to allow you to lay the fan on top and blow into cooler.  cut a few holes on the side towards the bottom and fit the PVC pipes pointing outwards.  Buy a bag of ice and put into cooler.  blow fan into cooler with ice, cold air blows out the PVC pipes.  

 Put i high enough to cool the air around tank. Below is a video to give an example.

[youtube]https/www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxSLbpAwibg[/youtube]

 

[Baccus]

It may pay to also increase the air in your tank while the temperature is hot, and if you can remove any lids/ hoods.
All of my tanks have airstones running in them because my tanks regularly get well over the 30 degree cel mark. My tanks are also all open topped with the filters causing ripples across the surface to aid in cooling and air transfer. Also none of my tanks have lights that run the entire length of the tank, this I  believe also helps keep the tank a little cooler since the light is not shining thus heating the entire water surface.

 

[BiggTexx]

Have you thought about a DIY chiller?
 
I don't recall your tank size(s), but a DIY chiller can drop those temps anywhere from 5 to 20 degrees depending on how much you want to spend.
 
I built a chiller based on UaruJoey's (The king of DIY) mini-fridge design for a 45gal  and if regulated properly, can drop temps between 8 and 12 degrees which was perfect for what I needed. I think I ended up spending about $120 to make this version (all purchased new).
 
There are other versions you can build that are initially cheaper, but cost more to run long-term and are harder to maintain. Replace the mini-fridge costs by using an insulated cooler to store the hoses, then filling with ice (and keeping it filled with ice).
 
https/www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5s8Cu59-NM
 
If you need emergency relief in the tank, freeze water bottles to float in it.

 

[Byron]

I am not so certain this is solely a heat issue.  I have Corydoras panda that manage in heat waves when the tank water temperature is around 80F.  Before I got my portable air conditioner in the fish room, they went way over this, close to 90F.  The fish (most all of mine) will be less active, and assuming it cools down during the darkness, you should be able to get through.
 
I would however, follow some of the suggestions for cooling the water, especially increasing surface movement.  C. panda is a fish from streams with more water movement so some degree of normal water current should be present...something which is adverse to Betta.  This water movement in general may have a bearing here.
 
The other thing is your nitrate is way too high at 40 ppm.  Nitrate should be kept below 20 ppm as an absolute maximum.  If this is due to the source water, there are steps you can take.  If it is due to conditions in the aquarium itself, you can easily solve it; more frequent and/or larger water changes, live plants especially floating, not overstocking or overfeeding.  Without knowing the situation, I am only pointing out the obvious.
 
While high temperatures, or high nitrates, or too little water movement in themselves will often not cause visible (to most of us) signs in fish, the stress caused by each one is multiplied when they increase together.  At some point, this weakens the fish and they cannot manage.
 
One comment on cooling the water during heat waves--do not make sudden changes.  Cooling the water with ice and water changes, having the water temp rise in a few hours, then repeating the cooling, is much worse than leaving it alone.
 
Byron.

 

[frapadoodle]

Yeah, doing the ice bottle method.
Flow is good around most of the tank. A slack area behind the driftwood at one end, but that's where my Corys rest so not worried.
Also doing daily mini waterchanges with cooler water. Lights are off during the day to reduce heat.
As for nitrates being too high, as it comes out of the tap at 20+ppm, and my tanks have averaged 40ppm in heavily planted, lightly planted, heavily stocked, lightly stocked, et cetera for several years not a great concern.

My belief it's due to heat is I have found no other cause.
It irritates me as Pandas are rare as hen's teeth.

 

[Bubbelzzz]

From what I've read I would also suggest that stress could be a bigger problem then the heat. Pandas should be able to survive the heat for a short period. However, if they are already stressed and/or not very healthy, the heat could be lethal.
 
So I agree with Byron on this one, however, I want to add that the amount of pandas is a bit low. They should be kept in a group so 2 (previously 3) is not enough. This is also a stress factor.

 

[frapadoodle]

To clear up a couple of things.

The Betta is in a seperate tank with his own sponge filter so he is not blown all over the tank.

I do know that Pandas as all Corys do better in groups of 6+, but yes they are rare as hen's teeth in these parts. In the past few years they have popped up in the shops twice.

I have live plants in all of my tanks. As well I tend to overfilter, more is always better.

We all have the odd death from time to time, my last was three months ago of a single Oto in my main tank. My belief in heat problems stems from it not being a short period of higher than normal temps, but a period of two weeks. And personal observation of sluggishness in my Pandas much as in myself and my dog when we are in the heat.

If the nitrates are way too high, and a huge stressor why am I not rampant with disease and mass die offs?

I said it will end in tears, mainly due to how hard it is to come by Pandas locally.

 

[Akasha72]

I've known Mr Doodles a long time - mostly from another forum - and I know all too well of his problems locating the panda cories he so desperately wanted. Much like my own efforts to find more melini cories to up the number ... they are a bit like hen's teeth in my area too.
 
Sometimes, with all the best will in the world it's not always possible to get 'the right amount' of fish for a shoal. We do our best and sometimes we fail - we're only human after all. And we can only buy what is available at the time. 
 
I was hoping that once he found the 3 panda's that they would breed in his aquarium and up their number themselves but now he's lost the female the hope of that has disappeared. 
 
Mr Doodles is an experienced fish keeper and I doubt very much that there is anything wrong with his tanks other than the heat problem he's experiencing. My own tank runs with a nitrate level of around 40 and one brief check of my test kit booklet tells me it only reaches danger level at 80+ ... also we all know that nitrate tests are never accurate and are often incredibly hard to read accurately and so we take a rough guess (at least I do and I know others that do too) and hope we're about right.
It also known that panda cories are the most delicate of the species list. If something is wrong, even in a very minor sense, the panda's will be the first to let us know .. generally by dying unfortunately.
 
You know my advice Mr Doodles .... hopefully you can get the temps down and hopefully find some replacement panda's soon Good luck my friend

 

[Byron]

Probably without meaning to, most of you are agreeing with me.  "Stress" is indeed the cause of 95% of all fish deaths.  In most cases, fish are able to overcome this and that, through their immune system when it is disease-oriented, or through their general "good health" when it is environmental (as in the temperature).  The fact that the fish dies means it is under stress, so logically we look for possibilities.
 
I had missed the number factor, and there is no doubt at all that this causes stess.  I am not blaming the member for not having more fish available, these things happen.  But please do not deny the stress resulting.  It is just there.
 
Nitrates above 20 ppm will affect most aquarium fish over time.  Now, we will not get agreement on this, so there is no point in harping.  But there is sufficient evidence from scientific studies to suggest that nitrates, like the counterparts ammonia and nitrite, do negatively impact fish physiology.  The impact is not as drastic or sudden with nitrate as it is with ammonia and nitrite, but it is still there.  And this may well be adding stress over time.
 
Unless we are trained ichthyologists, we cannot possibly know the internal state of our fish.  All we can do is understand the issues and accept them.  I have been battling a "disease" problem in one tank for over a year now; it has not so far killed a fish, but it is attacking their gills.  It will suddenly appear, then after two weeks is dissipates.  Obviously the treatment is retarding it but not "curing" it.  I have a professional microbiologist helping me through this; one of the very first things she suggested for the recurrence after a couple months was stress, so we looked at every aspect of maintenance from water changes to foods to additives (for plants, water conditioner, etc) to parameters to species and numbers to...whatever--all with the aim of determining any likely stress.  A little stress from "A" may not seem like much, but to the fish it may be an issue, and then "B" or "C" occurs to add more stress...next thing you know, fish are mysteriously dying.  There really is no mystery in fish deaths, there is always a reason.  It may be genetic or caused by something along the way.  At some point an added stress which also might be of no consequence otherwise, is the straw that breaks the camel's back.  Any time I see a member respond that this or that has existed for "x" months/years with no problem, I can only shake my head.  There is a problem...you just can't recognize it.  But to dismiss it out of hand is not wise.
 
Byron.

 

[Bubbelzzz]

It was not my intention to blame someone and I've no doubt about the experience of Mr Doodles. 
 
However, certain factors will cause stress, even if you can't help it. I'm not suggesting that the did this on purpose or that it is his fault. It just happened. But even then, it still causes stress.
 
These things can happen to everybody even to the most experienced ones. 
 
So in this case stress will be an important factor, along with the high temperature.
For temperature reduction I could think of the following things you could do:
-remove the hood/lids
-use a fan
-make/buy an aquarium cooler
-reduce the time that the light of the fish tank is on
-place a bottle with ice in the tank (watch out that your fish can't touch it)
-put the heater off
 
And it will also be helpful if you could get the temperature in the room slightly lower.

 

[frapadoodle]

In the interest of cooler heads prevailing, I shall turn the other cheek and you can kiss that one too.

Thanks too all who kindly gave advice, but for the other attitudes, it's no wonder people get fed up with fishkeeping and throw in the towel. It's always nice to be told you are an idiot, but in a nice way.

 

[BiggTexx]

Frapadoodle, for the record I don't think this has anything to do with your ability as a fish owner/keeper (whatever they call us now).