Is There A Reason Lfs Don't Sell Mature Media

Possibly a bit harsh there Tizer :) Just because I'm no longer bothering to dive into fish shops to pick this week's top favourite fish doesn't mean that I'm going to give up on them by Christmas :)

Any road as you're a firm fish in chap (God that sounds wrong) I guess you'd not be too concerned about the availability of something to speed up cycles (especially as you enjoy water changes); each to their own :)


Miles

Well, i do wish it was a faster process! Doing my 240 nearly killed me :D I hope your not still doing it by xmas, i'll send you some mature media in the post myself if you are :D
 
i asked my LFS this same question not even a month back, and he said no one has ever asked, im the first one to bring it up, but he was willing to give me some if i needed. I didnt need it at the time, but i guess that shows us another point. No one ever asks for it, so they dont think to sell it.
 
Turn up the heat, as high as 100F. The ideal temps for ammonia and nitrite consuming bacteria are 95F and 100F. Up the temp and the whole cycle can go much faster.
 
fishguy,

Everything I've seen said 84F was the optimum temp. What is your source for that?



On the topic of why stores don't sell it, I can't say. Unlike the more negative view that the stores are more interested in selling fish than media, I think it comes down to profit margin. First, the mature media would take time and effort to culture and harvest, as it would be most effective only if harvested when needed. Unlike the bottled stuff, which they can just sit on a shelf and wait for some (sorry for the use of this word, but speaking as a former one, I believe it is an accurate one) sucker to come along and buy it. The profit margin would be just as high, if not higher for the bottled stuff with comparably zero labor costs involved. A good LFS could make a killing on something like this, if you ask me... Something as small as a few ceramic rings placed into the filters and given away free with every tank purchase would be such an easy promotion and I think the goodwill it breeds would be well worth the effort. (But I don't think they see it as a potential moneymaker, otherwise they would do it.)


Mature media is FAR more effective than the bottled stuff could ever be, for a variety of reasons. First, the media comes with the bacteria already firmed attached to their location, unlike the bottled stuff which requires you to merely add it to the tank and take your chances on the bacteria sticking where you want it. Second, the media already has the biofilm in place, whereas the bacteria in a bottle (if it is even alive still) has to start from scratch creating the biofilm. Lastly, the bacteria are already in a perfect location with good water movement over them in the filter from the very beginning and they can begin to process ammonia immediately without having to waste energy or time doing anything else.


If I had to do it all over, I would have gotten my hands on some mature media, rather than buying the bottled bacteria. To quote little Sally Brown from It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown: "What a fool I was!!!" Well, live and learn. :X
 
I don't remember now, I came across those temps a while ago researching something else, can't cite it now for you, sorry.

Most people are not into the hobby enough to even think about mature media. 90% (or more) of the aquarists out there only know what the guy at the fish shop tells them. If he wants to sell them a bottle of bacteria guess what's going to happen, they are going home with a bottle of bacteria.

Not to mention that on a large enough tank cycling works differently and you don't need to worry about fishless cycling, bottled bacteria, or mature media.

The shop I ran used pond sand filters with a backwash option, not even close to an option for selling media. The FX5s we used on the display tanks would also have been a horrible idea to try to sell media out of. If a shop was using individual filtration they can't start taking media out every time someone starts a new tank, it would throw off any tank they took it from.
 
Fishguy

If you can firm up on those temps I'm sure the beginners section would be interested etc however (forgive me) for now I'll sit at the "recommended" temperature - however always open to change :)

When you say "for a large tank" how large are you talking - I assume larger than the domestic tank? An interesting point that the basic shop filter system could be totally unsuited to the purpose.

I assume the comment about the donation of media from one of the display filters was around the uncontrolled extraction and the administrative difficulty of ensuring that too much is not extracted in any given time period? At the moment the comment reads as if donating MM will throw your filter out which would be a worrying thing for anyone thinking of donating... :)

Miles
 
i asked my LFS this same question not even a month back, and he said no one has ever asked, im the first one to bring it up, but he was willing to give me some if i needed. I didnt need it at the time, but i guess that shows us another point. No one ever asks for it, so they dont think to sell it.

Interesting how this varies isn't it? I've asked my location Maindenhead Aquatics branches (Swindon, Newbury and Oxford) if they sell and I got very emphatic and instant responses of "we don't do that"; end of conversation. Your's doesn't seem to have heard of the idea and Fluttermoth's are #41#### near giving it away! :)

Miles


Watch your language please!
 
It depends on the stock you are wanting to do. I would say around 75 gallons and up. If you are stocking small fish you can just start stocking slowly and should not have any issues with ammonia or nitrite.

Stopping what you are doing, opening up a Fluval FX5 on a display tank, and selling a little media for a few bucks at best is not what any LFS is going to want to do, especially on a Satruday. Just cycle with the free bacteria in the air. If you get enough bacteria to significantly shorten the cycle time on your tank, the tank that donated it lost a significant amount of bacteria.
 
As long as the donating tank doesn't give any more than 1/3 of the media, then there shouldn't be a single hiccup in the donating tank. Remember, the bacteria double about every 24 hours, if conditions are right. So, 2/3 of the bacteria can multiply easily to make up for the lost portion without a problem.

On the other hand, that donated media can instantly cycle a tank with a smaller bioload. For example, a 50 gallon tank with 20 fish, could donate 1/3 of the media, and 6 fish could be added to a new tank with no major concern about ammonia and nitrite. Granted, both the donating tank and the new tank would need to monitor the levels just to ensure everything is on the level, but there shouldn't be a reading in either one.



In the U.S. angelsplus does sell "active" sponges.
http://www.angelsplus.com/FiltersSponge.htm
 
I don't remember who it was, but on another thread on this forum I said exactly that and the response was effectively 'some bacteria have a very short lifespan, but the ones in our aquarium are fairly long lived'. The person was discussing why they change the temp in their tank every six months to keep a 'hardier, more tolerant variety of bacteria that could do just as well if the temp dropped from the power going out'. If I remember correctly it was a mod, and as a Biologist I didn't agree with this at all. I do think a mature tank could recover fairly well if only a fraction of the media was removed (although I don't know if I would say as high as 1/3).

I do think taking 1/3 of the media would cause a problem. Not to mention that the tank being seeded will still be very unstable (although better than not adding mature media). I think people need to get out of the habit of trying to cycle as fast as possible. If you don't have the patience to cycle a tank naturally, you don't have the patience for this hobby.

As a hobbyist I see no need to use mature media when starting a new tank, or cycling one over about 75 gallons. As a retailer I see no reason to change the filters I use for the rare occasion someone asks for mature media (otherwise you have to convice them to buy your gross, used media). As a service provider I see no reason to regularly use mature media. IME tanks run much better if you set them up properly and let them mature naturally. Trying to cut corners and rush things will only lead to complications. Not that using mature media is cutting corners, but trying to get the cycle to occur as quickly as possible is symptomatic of a larger issue of lack of patience. Even with mature media there is no guarantee of a tank cycling instantly or even signficantly faster.
 
The snails are included, free of charge, therefore the sponges include the sticker: "Snail free". :lol:
 
I do think taking 1/3 of the media would cause a problem. Not to mention that the tank being seeded will still be very unstable (although better than not adding mature media). I think people need to get out of the habit of trying to cycle as fast as possible. If you don't have the patience to cycle a tank naturally, you don't have the patience for this hobby.

I’ve been doing this very thing for years, often slowing down with the fishroom during the summer, bringing it back up to capacity when the weather gets cold. I might have 15-20 tanks running during the summer, with plenty of extra sponge filters in each. I’d rather be outside in the sun with my dogs & my grill enjoying the summer.

Summer ends, I get breeding, maybe get in some new species, perhaps find a deal on a bulk purchase. I’ll take 1/3 of the media, usually a largish sponge filter, from a running stocked tank, fill an empty tank, and add fish as I see fit, by the stocking of the donor tank as well as the stocking of the newly filled tank. Light feeding on both for a week, along with a couple extra water changes that first week, not a problem. I can bring my room up to 30-35 tanks in a week that way if the situation demands. Tune in next spring, when I sell off stock, drain tanks, and double up filters in running tanks.

As a hobbyist I see no need to use mature media when starting a new tank, or cycling one over about 75 gallons. As a retailer I see no reason to change the filters I use for the rare occasion someone asks for mature media (otherwise you have to convice them to buy your gross, used media). As a service provider I see no reason to regularly use mature media. IME tanks run much better if you set them up properly and let them mature naturally. Trying to cut corners and rush things will only lead to complications. Not that using mature media is cutting corners, but trying to get the cycle to occur as quickly as possible is symptomatic of a larger issue of lack of patience. Even with mature media there is no guarantee of a tank cycling instantly or even signficantly faster.

I see no difference between what I do with anything from a 2.5 gallon hatching & fry tank up to 150 gallon tubs for growing fish out. The same principles apply, the scale is different. I could see a retailer not wanting to bother digging into what is often a centralized system for media that may be unsuitable for the most commonly found hobbyist filters, but would it be so hard to toss in a few common sizes of Aqua Clear sponges & bio wheels in with the bio balls of a sump? Banks of tanks & a sump, such as a Mars system, or many of other such site built retailer oriented systems could easily accommodate this, hopefully they would have a decent mechanical stage before their bio stage to eliminate a majority of the grossness.

I don’t see any of this as cutting corners or rushing, or a sign of anything other than having a good handle on the interaction between fish, stocking levels, and nitrifying bacterial levels. From experiences my handful of tanks is not an anomaly, being involved with two local clubs, knowing dozens of people with the same sort of setups give or take, and their doing the same thing with the same results leads me to believe that running extra bio filtration if you plan on having more tanks in the future is the best way to go. If you’re stuck in a pinch contact a local club, we do this sort of thing all the time.
 
I am just saying why retailers don't. It can be a pain, not worth the effort, and there are more cost effective ways of helping to start a tank. I have never had a customer ask about buying mature media.
 

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