Is It True?..

[dzsigmond217]

Update:

My 29 gallon this afternoon: still pH of 6 or less (lava rock in and large driftwood out for around 18 hours)
My 7 gallon this afternoon: pH of 7.6 or higher!!!(with coral piece in for around 18 hours)

So obviously the piece of coral did the trick (albeit way too much!)
I took the coral out because it raised the pH too high and put it in my 29 gallon.
I will look for either another piece of coral, tho smaller for the 7 gallon today at another LFS (or coral gravel)

I did another test on the tap water that sat overnight and the pH reading came out to 6.8 again.
Could it be that when I put the new tap water in all the splashing releases the gases super quick and thats why the pH goes immediately down??

I'm going to take a glass of water and dump it in and out of a bucket a few times then check the pH. Probably a silly test but what the heck..why not?!

At least with the coral something changed! I was losing faith that anything would ever change!! Its a little weight off my shoulders.

Another question:Is it true that shells can also increase pH? I have a ton of tiny shells I collected when I was in Florida which I boiled. Maybe they would be good for the 7 gallon?? Let me know!

Wish me luck at this new LFS! I hope I find what I need
Dianne

 

[dzsigmond217]

Another update:

It's only been a few hours and the coral has already increased the pH in the 29 gallon to around 6.2!
Whoopee! Hopefully it will raise it a little more in the next couple of hours. I went ahead and put the shells in the 7 gallon because the LFS was closed by the time I got there (4got it's Saturday!!) Lets see how things go from here..cross your fingers!!

Dianne

 

[andywg]

And why do most reefers use a calcium leaching substrate and rock too?

To try and prevent any levels falling once the buffers in the salt are used up (most of the buffering in a SW tank is the salt, and not the substrate). Also, the rock and substrate dissolve until the tank reaches close to the desired pH of 8.2 to 8.4, far higher then is likely to be wanted here.

Using the powder in a reef is less risky as you will know Andy, as the calcium leaching substrate and rock are already helping to harden the water and avoid pH swings. Should you forget to add the powder, theres less chance of a pH disaster as there are already buffers in place. In a situation where no other buffers are in place, it is much more reliable to use coral gravel than powder buffer, in case something should go wrong.

Unless you have some form of super heavy loaded tank, buffering the pH up and then putting the Alk up in a FW tank will give a good week or more before needing it to be added again. In a stoney reef most additives need to be added daily, failing to do so can cause large Alk swings which are very detrimental, so I don't think you do have a greater margin of error. The LR and substrate are a fall back if you aren't dosing (so a low calcareous load in the tank) for when the levels of the salt water are brought down as part of the nitrogen cycle.

Again, i assume you are saying that most reefers don't use coral or argonite sand, or live rock, as this would "dissolve calcium carbonate into the water at an unknown rate"?

They do dissolve at an unknown rate. Reefers also use the rocks and such far easier as lime based rock and substrate will keep dissolving until the pH reaches 8.2 to 8.4. This is a level far higher than most people in FW want. Once the required level in a reef is achieved the calcium carbonate dissolution is far slower, in most FW tanks outside of rift valley lakes you don't really want that sort of pH.

Actually, for dedicated stoney reefs where pH, alk and calc are essential, many people do away with the substrate altogether as it creates far more problems than it fixes, though they are often into the realms of fluidised calcium reactors.

I assume also that the powder buffers you mention have variable instructions on them to allow for if there are other calcium carbonate buffers in the tank, as otherwise surely using the buffers is just dumping powder in to increase hardness and pH to an unknown level?

It all depends on the individual buffer. Most actually say to keep testing to see what the effect of the buffer is compared to before. One should never artificially buffer any parameter without testing to see how it is effecting it. They then tend to give you the molecular calculations on how much to add to raise a certain amount of water a certain level, from which you can design your dosing based on your tank's consumption of the required element.

As i have stated above, i am recommending that in the absence of any other buffers, a buffering substrate will provide a more stable environment for the fish than having to add powders frequently, especially in the event that the powder runs out etc etc.

If you want a fire and forget system where you put something in the tank and leave it then a substrate is a great way to go. If you want a true level of control about how you buffer the tank then you are likely to find yourself using a powder based form. How much trouble is it really to add some buffer with dechlor at water change time?

This situation wouldn't occur with the use of a buffering substrate. I agree that when there are already other buffers in place (as in a reef tank), the powders are less likely to have a negative effect, but at the same time, why bother to use them in that situation?

But, using a substrate gives far less control about how much is added at any one time. It is horses for courses, and you have discarded the far more controlled variant just because of a hypothetical point in the future where someone fails to monitor a system that is left so finely balanced it cannot cope with one omission of a buffer.

And all of the above is without reference to the science indicating pH swings have very little effect on fish (if at all) unless they are huge (greater than 2.0 on the pH scale).


Edit---

Just noticed, as if to example my point about the lack of control and the ability of substrates and rocks to have too much effect, we have the OP:

So obviously the piece of coral did the trick (albeit way too much!)
I took the coral out because it raised the pH too high and put it in my 29 gallon.

 

[backtotropical]

Unless you have some form of super heavy loaded tank, buffering the pH up and then putting the Alk up in a FW tank will give a good week or more before needing it to be added again.

My point exactly. After the "good week" your tank will be likely to suffer a kH crash, and therefore likely pH crash unless more buffers are added. This situation isn't likely to happen if using a buffering substrate. Relying on the powders when no other buffering is in place seems like an accident waiting to happen.

Regarding your quote of the OP, if you read back, you will notice that putting a large piece of coral in the tank is not the action i recommended to take.

The science you refer to enhances my point further in that a pH swing of more than 2.0 is very unlikely in freshwater which is being buffered by coral gravel, but much more likely in freshwater which is relying on the buffer dosing accuracy of the tank owner, which is invariably open to the risks of human error.

I may be "discarding the far more controlled variant just because of a hypothetical point in the future where someone fails to monitor a system that is left so finely balanced it cannot cope with one omission of a buffer", but i am doing so on the basis that the "hypothetical point in the future" is all but eliminated by choosing the substrate buffering option.

It's swings and roundabouts as far as i'm concerned. Both methods work, and the powder method is more controllable, but i find that the substrate is the far better option for those who don't want to check hardness levels unnecessarily frequently, have another additive for each water change, or have another additive to waste their money on, and so is the one i will continue to recommend.

-edited for spelling.

 

[dzsigmond217]

Ummm..ok the last two posts were way above my head!
The good news (so far) is that the coral (which is not a large piece but rather small) in the 29 gallon has raised the pH to 6.8 and its sticking!! I did a 75% water change because the ammonia spiked to around 4 or 5 ppm. I tested the water after the water change and ammonia was .50ppm and pH STILL 6.8!! I added Ammo-Lock to detoxify the ammonia that is still there and of course a water conditioner. The 7 gallon tank that I added the shells to also spiked in ammonia so I did a 75% water change and after tested pH again which was stable at 6.8 as well. I am hoping (PRAYING!!) that pH will stay stable at 6.8. Could the ammonia spike be due to the pH being raised??..and can I hope for my cycle in these two tanks to finally begin? I know I didn't use limestone or coral gravel as suggested but all the LFS' near me don't stock it and my LFS suggested the lava rock and coral piece. On Monday I'm going to check another store and see if they have any mature media they can sell me to help me along the way. As usual any suggestions or advice is much appreciated!
Dianne

 

[dzsigmond217]

Update (again & again...!)

29 gallon :

ammonia- 8ppm!!!(aghhhh!)
pH - 7.0
nitrite - around .25!!!

yeaa! I believe cycling has begun! YES!!

7 gallon :

ammonia - 8ppm
pH - 6.8
nitrite - .25

and folks we have a winner!!
Thanks to all who helped me figure out my pH problem!
I'll keep updating until tank is finally CYCLED!
Dianne

 

[st24rsap]

just wondering if you have any updates on the tanks?

im currently having a similar problem in my breeding tank where the ph drops to around 3.5