I Just Don't Believe It!

[snazy]

I didn't mean that you are not maintaining your tank, the fair point here is that snail population explosion=extra food constantly available. If you've got just a few snails there's nothing to worry about, they will never have a population explosion if all is right and will just do their thing, live and die and get replaced by the next generation. They won't ever vanish, they won't ever multiply to the point of becoming a nuisance.

I don't want snails, pure and simple, and they will have to go.
 

 
Fair enough.  It just makes me cringe when I read "chemical remover"  What would people do for aesthetic reasons is beyond me  No offense.

 

[ShinySideUp]

 

No, not at all. What I do believe is that the quoted (by specialists, scientists, researchers, etc) size of fish is that which it could grow to in it's ideal habitat, perfect water conditions, absolute ideal food sources, etc., more than likely based on the largest found. The sizes quoted by amateur fish-keepers are (I believe) mostly based on hear-say, what they've read, what they've been told, inaccurate measuring (how many owners get their fish out to measure them properly rather than try to measure them swimming around a tank?)  or just plain old exaggeration. Yes, maybe in an ideal world, a clown loach could get to 16" (but one has not, apparently, been recorded of that size), but in the aquarium I very much doubt it.
 
As for what the LFS tells me - I'm far too old to believe a salesperson ;-)
 
John
 

 
Yes, I agree there, maximum sizes are just that. Let's face it the maximum size of anything is an outlier and unlikely to be common. I have heard the very largest Clown loaches get to in an aquarium is 12" (16" in the wild) but again we are talking about another maximum. I would expect (and fervently hope) that the norm for Clown loaches in captivity is more likely to be eight inches, ten at a push.
 
Also, I too am old enough to take everything a salesperson says with more than a hint of suspicion and a large dose of cynicism.
 
I orginally bought loaches to cure a snail problem and found that Zebra loaches did an excellent job and only grow to ( a maximum of

  ) 4". They still do a very good job assisting the Clown however what they can't get to are the small snails that live in the filter. Every month to six weeks I open the FX5 to clean it out and always there are small snails in the bottom. I wash them out but at the next change they are there again. Truly, once you have the little f*****s you're never really free of them.

 

[SarahR]

Just leave the snails alone. If you are hand feeding the eel, then there'll be no left over food for the snail population to feed on and their numbers will be always low. Personally I don't have any issues with snails and in the last tank I setup I introduced a variety of snails on purpose, was warned by everyone as usual that they'll overtake the tank but it still hasn't happened

I barely see them and I've got pond snails, Malaysian trumpet snails and rams horn snails.  The pond snails I've had for years in all tanks. The clown loach tank does not have visible snails but I find the occasional one in the filters so they can't kill them all. With snails its always about overfeeding and bad maintenance of the tank, they flourish in these conditions.

Snails can easily overpopulate a tank without bad maintenance or overfeeding. As I mentioned, I had a ridiculous number of ramshorns in my Bristlenose colony tank. Not all fish eat in a minute or two, fish like Bristlenose are grazers and fry especially need access to food for several hours a day- and their preferred foods happen to be excellent snail food as well. Trying to starve the snails would have been useless, the fish would have starved long before the snails.

 

[snazy]

 

Just leave the snails alone. If you are hand feeding the eel, then there'll be no left over food for the snail population to feed on and their numbers will be always low. Personally I don't have any issues with snails and in the last tank I setup I introduced a variety of snails on purpose, was warned by everyone as usual that they'll overtake the tank but it still hasn't happened

I barely see them and I've got pond snails, Malaysian trumpet snails and rams horn snails.  The pond snails I've had for years in all tanks. The clown loach tank does not have visible snails but I find the occasional one in the filters so they can't kill them all. With snails its always about overfeeding and bad maintenance of the tank, they flourish in these conditions.

Snails can easily overpopulate a tank without bad maintenance or overfeeding. As I mentioned, I had a ridiculous number of ramshorns in my Bristlenose colony tank. Not all fish eat in a minute or two, fish like Bristlenose are grazers and fry especially need access to food for several hours a day- and their preferred foods happen to be excellent snail food as well. Trying to starve the snails would have been useless, the fish would have starved long before the snails.
 

 
The only time I had overpopulation of snails was in a cory fry tank. I was overfeeding a lot, so yes, you can get overpopulated with snails and your scenario is similar.  And in this case there's a thin line between overfeeding to keep the fry happy and good water quality.   I am not pointing a finger at anyone here.  But in an adult fish tank this is a sign of overfeeding or food available and will lead to problems if one keeps going the same way. As soon as people realise that, the sooner their snail related problems will disappear. And don't get me wrong, I feed my fish more than enough and more than most but not too much to cause a problem.  If one has a normal population of snails and wants to nuke them for aesthetics reasons, then that's another story. But killing overpopulation of snails on another hand won't solve the cause for what led to overpopulation.
And to compare, I raised my bristlenose pleco from a little fry too. There's no way snails would over compete plecos for food. In fact, most fish can't compete with my plecos. They get to the food first but I may be lucky that way.

 

[SarahR]

No, my scenario isn't at all similar. I'm speaking of large numbers of Bristlenose. As I said, mine is a colony (breeding) tank. Snails compete quite successfully with newly hatched and very young bristlenose, especially for veg matter type food. It is not even remotely a matter of overfeeding. There is no thin line, bristlenose fry need both abundant food and good water quality to thrive. Which makes for ideal snail breeding ground as well, so ramshorns easily overpopulate. I introduced some assassins.

 

[snazy]

It is not even remotely a matter of overfeeding.
 

 
Honestly, your are saying your tank had what, 50-100 young bristlenose plecos and their parents all in one tank for which you needed to provide food several hours a day due to their grazing nature and you consider this tank a normally stocked and fed tank?

 

[SarahR]

What I was saying was there are certainly situations not involving poor husbandry where snails can overpopulate - such as my tank with breeding individuals and fry. (And if you happen to have a pair of Bristlenose, and provide the proper conditions, then yes, this is pretty much a normally stocked tank, LOL)
You obviously like having snails in your aquarium, so you deliberately introduced them. Some people don't want them and would never add them in by choice. One persons controlled population can easily be another persons unwelcome invasion. For that person, just "leave(ing) the snails alone" isn't acceptable. A lot of people simply don't like the look of them, which is a perfectly valid reason for wanting them gone. (What is an aquarium if not about how it looks to you?)
It just seems a bit silly to dictate what someone else should or shouldn't have in their own tank.

 

[snazy]

(What is an aquarium if not about how it looks to you?)
It just seems a bit silly to dictate what someone else should or shouldn't have in their own tank.  
 

        
Well, yes, some people care only about the looks. It may sound silly to you and its not in relation to this thread but some people should be "dictated" what they should or shouldn't keep in their own tank because we are talking about life beings here. You can't keep anything you like in any one tank.
And you may convince some newbie that the snail explosion in your tank has nothing to do with over feeding but to breed fish and raise fry you've go to be overfeeding. It's very much acceptable but that's what happens in these circumstances. The problem is if one is not aware extra care should be due because of that. Snails are just an indicator of what's happening. Getting rid of the snails is like taking a pain killer, doesn't cure the problem but makes you feel better.

 

[SarahR]

(What is an aquarium if not about how it looks to you?)
It just seems a bit silly to dictate what someone else should or shouldn't have in their own tank.

        
Well, yes, some people care only about the looks. It may sound silly to you and its not in relation to this thread but some people should be "dictated" what they should or shouldn't keep in their own tank because we are talking about life beings here. You can't keep anything you like in any one tank.
And you may convince some newbie that the snail explosion in your tank has nothing to do with over feeding but to breed fish and raise fry you've go to be overfeeding. It's very much acceptable but that's what happens in these circumstances. The problem is if one is not aware extra care should be due because of that. Snails are just an indicator of what's happening. Getting rid of the snails is like taking a pain killer, doesn't cure the problem but makes you feel better.

No, it doesn't sound silly to me, it sounds arrogant and condescending. I'm sorry, but you, I, and yes, even "some newbie" absolutely can keep whatever they like in their own tank. I so hate to be the one to enlighten you to that fact.

Just so you know, I don't overfeed adults or fry of any species, and I certainly don't think overfeeding is "very much acceptable", let alone NECESSARY in order to "breed fish or raise fry" -that's just plain moronic..sorry, I meant to say that's just not true.

Providing a proper amount and type of food and allowing fish a good and natural time frame in which to feed is NOT OVERFEEDING. The fact that it may overly benefit a snail population is good reason to remove the snails. Snails are snails, not some silly metaphor. Opportunistic feeders with big appetites and their own slimy agendas. They are of benefit in some tanks, relatively benign in others, and in some a royal pain and / or simply not wanted. Yeah, I know "some people" are just so shallow and superficial and need to get over it and open their hearts and aquariums to all gods creatures. Gotcha.... carry on.

 

[Baccus]

I would like to draw to everyones attention that the MOD team has been keeping an eye on this thread and would like to remind all members that even if you disagree on a topic, that you still need to show other forum members respect and remain polite throughout your debate.

 

[snazy]

 

 

(What is an aquarium if not about how it looks to you?)
It just seems a bit silly to dictate what someone else should or shouldn't have in their own tank.

        
Well, yes, some people care only about the looks. It may sound silly to you and its not in relation to this thread but some people should be "dictated" what they should or shouldn't keep in their own tank because we are talking about life beings here. You can't keep anything you like in any one tank.
And you may convince some newbie that the snail explosion in your tank has nothing to do with over feeding but to breed fish and raise fry you've go to be overfeeding. It's very much acceptable but that's what happens in these circumstances. The problem is if one is not aware extra care should be due because of that. Snails are just an indicator of what's happening. Getting rid of the snails is like taking a pain killer, doesn't cure the problem but makes you feel better.
 

No, it doesn't sound silly to me, it sounds arrogant and . I'm sorry, but you, I, and yes, even "some newbie" absolutely can keep whatever they like in their own tank. I so hate to be the one to enlighten you to that fact.

Just so you know, I don't overfeed adults or fry of any species, and I certainly don't think overfeeding is "very much acceptable", let alone NECESSARY in order to "breed fish or raise fry" -that's just plain moronic..sorry, I meant to say that's just not true.

Providing a proper amount and type of food and allowing fish a good and natural time frame in which to feed is NOT OVERFEEDING. The fact that it may overly benefit a snail population is good reason to remove the snails. Snails are snails, not some silly metaphor. Opportunistic feeders with big appetites and their own slimy agendas. They are of benefit in some tanks, relatively benign in others, and in some a royal pain and / or simply not wanted. Yeah, I know "some people" are just so shallow and superficial and need to get over it and open their hearts and aquariums to all gods creatures. Gotcha.... carry on.
 


Yeah, sure. You got me. My fish are starved or overfed, yours are perfectly fine, just cramped inside the tank a bit due to large numbers and a snail explosion. I am arrogant and condescending, and a moron. I was starving my bristlenose by feeding him once a day when he was a baby, yours are properly fed with food available all day long. (I would love to know what "overfeeding" means to you in this case). And yes, feeding fry several times a day isn't overfeeding in terms of what the fry need, so here we go, I AGREE. However, depending on the tank size and stocking the tank may just not take it. Or do you keep your fry in a swimming pool?
 

Yeah, I know "some people" are just so shallow and superficial and need to get over it and open their hearts and aquariums to all gods creatures. Gotcha.... carry on.
 

 
Is that supposed to be an insult?
 

Snails are snails, not some silly metaphor. Opportunistic feeders with big appetites and their own slimy agendas.
 

He, he, "slimy agendas". Kill them or they'll eat you, the fish, the fish's food and if nothing else left, the tank itself.

 

[GrumpyJohn]

Just to make this clear I never had a problem with snails until I introduced new stock - then the snails appeared. I do not over-feed (well, I assume I don't because there isn't a layer of uneaten food stuff on the floor, although obviously there is for the short time I am feeding).  I want the snails gone because I don't like them. They look unsightly and they eat my plants (yes, they eat my plants - my fish don't, so even if I don't feed my fish my snails are still eating). Yes, they are living creatures, but then so is the live bloodworm, daphnia and other food stuff I place into my tank. Even the frozen foods were alive once. If I were that intensely worried about the welfare of all living things to the point that I would just leave a pest alone rather than deal with it then I wouldn't be keeping what are fundamentally wild animals confined within a glass tank residing in my front room in the first place - but I choose to. In doing so I give them the best care that I can.
 
When I deal with my snails they will be dealt with properly. I won't place a lettuce leaf inside the tank, wait for the snails to jump aboard then throw the lot in the bin or out onto the compost heap; nor will I vacuum them up when doing a water change and throw the water they are sucked into over my garden.  I will deal with them effectively using a proper solution created for the purpose. I haven't as yet because I want to make sure that any last residing river shrimp has gone - once I am happy then I will treat the snails. Unfortunately they will die in the process, but that's the harshness of life and death; at least they would have had a decent life in my tank until they die (unlike the millions of bloodworm that are produced simply to be frozen!). 
 
Thanks for your replies, they have been most entertaining...

 

[SarahR]

I said nothing at all about your tank, your fish, or your feeding methods, though you somehow seem to think you know all about, and can comment, on mine.

"Slimy agendas" was a joke, just how obvious does a joke need to be? I like snails, they're the worlds experts at finding food and reproduction. They are slimy.
God, lighten up.

I apologize for the "moronic" crack- I think I was overcome at the notion of deliberately overfeeding fish or fry for any reason.

Overfeeding is supplying more food than fish actually need or can eat. (Since you wanted to know.)
Yes, I often keep fry in swimming pools. (Since you asked.)

I remember now what I dislike about online forums...no matter,,,
I have to go feed the snails before they eat the dog.

 

[Donya]

A mod warning was posted earlier and not heeded, so I am going to have to lock this thread since it has gotten out of hand.