How thoroughly should I rinse foam filters?

[FishHobby99]

Wow! Your tanks are Stunning!

 

[Colin_T]

Are you certain of this? When this topic came up a few weeks ago, I tracked down some scientific data that said the nitrifying bacteria must be wet, they cannot survive in air, and they are in every natural water on the planet. Airborne seems impossible. This is why it can take 2 to 8 weeks to establish these bacteria, it depends upon the number in the chlorinated water.

Edit. I am of course speaking only of the nitrifying bacteria that live in fresh water. The soil nitrifying bacteria are a different species, and obviously live in air. But these do not colonize submersed surfaces.

Fairly certain but the info I read about it was back in the 80s so not sure now. I know algae spores can travel through the air, as can viruses and other types of bacteria. But if more updated studies are saying the aquarium filter bacteria can't survive out of water, well that puts a different perspective on it.

If they are traveling through the water supply into our tanks, we either have some really tough bacteria here or something else is going on. My tap water has around 7.5ppm of chlorine (about 3.5 times the safe recommended limit). If bacteria are getting through this, then it's time to worry

 

[Colin_T]

I never have been able to grasp the concept of intense light vs lower levels in fish tanks. I am unprepared to spend $500+ for meters that I am told accurately measure light intensity. It was said here the adage of 1 W per gallon of water is meaningless. But I kinda know what you mean.

If you have the aquarium light on and put your hand under the surface of the water, see if you get a shadow of your hand on the bottom of the tank. If you do, then you have good light. If you don't have a shadow, then it is low light.

Watts per gallon can mean different things on different tanks.
eg: if you have a light on a really tall aquarium, then the light has to penetrate more water and you need more lumens to provide light to the bottom of the tank.

If you put that light unit on a shallow tank (not as high), then more light will reach the bottom of the tank.

Both tanks have the same lights and same wattage and same lumens, but the taller tank will be considered low light, vs the shallow tank, which could be medium or high light.

 

[FishHobby99]

Fairly certain but the info I read about it was back in the 80s so not sure now. I know algae spores can travel through the air, as can viruses and other types of bacteria. But if more updated studies are saying the aquarium filter bacteria can't survive out of water, well that puts a different perspective on it.

If they are traveling through the water supply into our tanks, we either have some really tough bacteria here or something else is going on. My tap water has around 7.5ppm of chlorine (about 3.5 times the safe recommended limit). If bacteria are getting through this, then it's time to worry

I’m hearing no bacteria in my tap water.

 

[Byron]

Fairly certain but the info I read about it was back in the 80s so not sure now. I know algae spores can travel through the air, as can viruses and other types of bacteria. But if more updated studies are saying the aquarium filter bacteria can't survive out of water, well that puts a different perspective on it.

If they are traveling through the water supply into our tanks, we either have some really tough bacteria here or something else is going on. My tap water has around 7.5ppm of chlorine (about 3.5 times the safe recommended limit). If bacteria are getting through this, then it's time to worry

Thanks Colin. The data I came across back when this question was asked was certainly variable, but an old thread from TFF was fairly definite about the water transfer. Mind you, unless those of us taking part are trained biologists (which I certainly am not), opinions don't carry much weight. This is a question that I should pose to my friend Neale Monks, and report back.

 

[Byron]

Aren‘t the terms low to moderate subjective?

Yes. But back when all we had was fluorescent tube lighting, or some people used halogen spotlight but this was very expensive, it was easier to use such terms and they carried some degree of understanding for hobbyists. For example, my 29g with a single 2-foot T8 tube is low lighting, possibly somewhat moderate. My dual-tube 40w with two of these tubes is in the moderate range. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. I can grow floating plants like weeds, I have good results with crypts, Java Fern, mosses, Amazon swords (but not the red-leaf varieties which require more intensity). The stem plants like Cabomba disintegrate within a few weeks, they require more intense light.

 

[Byron]

Wow! Your tanks are Stunning!

This followed my post with photos of the 115g, so I am assuming you are referring to these. Thank you very much. My purpose in posting those photos was to show what is actually achievable with moderate lighting, no CO2 of any sort [and I don't care who disagrees, adding CO2 as diffused or liquid does cause trouble for fish ], and minimal plant additives. Substrate tabs for the swords, and one weekly dose of Flourish Comprehensive primarily for the floaters that need more nutrients.

 

[FishHobby99]

Given the plant expert that you are, Bryon, I‘d be curious to see what you think of the organisms in my thread: Unidentified organism observed in my best tank.

 

[Byron]

I hope @JennySolano doesn't mind our side-trek but it is part of the issue. Neale [Dr. Neale Monks] provided me with a recent (2019) study comparing the microbiomes of two drinking water distribution systems, one in the USA using chloramine, and the second in Norway not using chlorine/chloramine. The results are eye-opening. I will provide the link to the paper below, and what follows here are direct excerpts relevant to the crux of the issue with any clarification from me enclosed in square brackets.

AOB [ammonia oxidizing bacteria] encompass two lineages of class Proteobacteria: genus Nitrosococcus in the gamma subclass and family Nitrosomonadaceae in the beta subclass, which includes genera Nitrosomonas and Nitrosospira [these two genera are now known to be the AOB and NOB responsible for freshwater nitrification]. Family Nitrosomonadaceae-like OTUs were ubiquitous among biofilm and drinking water samples in both systems. Genus Nitrosomonas, in particular, was dominant in biofilms from the chloraminated DWDS (Fig. 1a), whereas most Nitrosomonadaceae in the no-residual DWDS were uncharacterized at genus level.​

​

Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria (NOB), which convert nitrite to nitrate, comprise at least seven genera in four phyla. Nitrospira, Nitrolancea, Nitrococcus, Nitrotoga, and Nitrobacter have been associated with engineered environments. Nitrospira-like OTUs were prominent in the no-residual DWDS but were also detected in the chloraminated DWDS along with Nitrotoga- and Nitrobacter-like OTUs.​

The relatively large percentage of nitrifying bacteria composing the microbiome of drinking water treated with chlorine/chloramine makes it clear that these "disinfectants" do not kill off these bacteria to any appreciable extent.

In my question to Neale, I had referenced rinsing filter media under the tap and several recent articles in PFK suggesting this is not going to kill the nitrifying bacteria, depending upon circumstances. He agreed, and responded with what I have so often suggested...

I agree with PFK that we don't need to molly-coddle the bacteria when cleaning the filter, but it's a good idea to recommend beginners take care. You and I might have some sense of what "too hot" would feel like under the tap, but a total beginner might not.​

Neale also pointed out something I would likely have missed, since I was not looking for this...and that is the presence of Mycobacterium [Fish TB] in drinking water. He writes,

Interestingly, Mycobacterium is also mentioned -- something that might well alarm those who have ever had to treat Fish TB. Would certainly seem, as Bob Fenner and others have suggested, that this is present in all tanks, but only a problem when the fish's immune system is suppressed.​

Comparison of the microbiomes of two drinking water distribution systems—with and without residual chloramine disinfection - Microbiome

Background Residual disinfection is often used to suppress biological growth in drinking water distribution systems (DWDSs), but not without undesirable side effects. In this study, water-main biofilms, drinking water, and bacteria under corrosion tubercles were analyzed from a chloraminated...

microbiomejournal.biomedcentral.com

 

[Byron]

Given the plant expert that you are, Bryon, I‘d be curious to see what you think of the organisms in my thread: Unidentified organism observed in my best tank.

I read that thread earlier, but can't help you with it as I have never seen anything remotely like the photos.

 

[FishHobby99]

terrific post, Byron!

 

[FishHobby99]

I read that thread earlier, but can't help you with it as I have never seen anything remotely like the photos.

Great balls of fire! I’m wishing now I had better photos so I could consult an expert at some university. I‘ve had great luck with that. Settled a Great Debate with a moderator at an American Bald Eagle cam. She was putting out gross misinformation. I contacted a leading expert in the field, author of many articles & books. That shut her up. At a South African cam, some viewers were repeating misinformation about zebras. I emailed a lead researcher & he emailed back from the field, think Botswana.

Hope I don‘t see much more of these organisms, but will work on better photography with the thought in mind of contacting an expert.

 

[Colin_T]

The relatively large percentage of nitrifying bacteria composing the microbiome of drinking water treated with chlorine/chloramine makes it clear that these "disinfectants" do not kill off these bacteria to any appreciable extent.

This is a concern and would suggest the bacteria might have evolved to tolerate or even live in chlorinated water.

An even bigger concern is Mycobacteria in drinking water. This Genus of bacteria is responsible for diseases like Tuberculsosis, Leprosy, and flesh eating bacterial disease that you get if bitten by a white tail spider.

Mycobacteria are notoriously hard to treat in any bird, fish, reptile or animal (including humans) because the bacteria have a waxy coating around them that protect them from medications, chemicals and environmental factors (UV light, drying out, etc).

If Mycobacteria and other types of bacteria have evolved to live in chlorinated water, we are doomed. The whole purpose of using chlorine or chloramine to disinfect drinking water was to kill off the harmful organisms in the water so we don't get sick. But if the bacteria have evolved to live in chlorinated water, then we are back in the dark ages drinking contaminated water. Governments around the world need to know about this and do something so we don't start getting sick from various diseases in the water supply.

 

[FishHobby99]

I would think widespread contaminated water would be a top US news story. I can’t speak for other countries. There are thousands of investigative reporters here who love to see their exposes plastered everwhere.

I use tap water for myself, the cats, dogs, birds & fish. The husband filters water with a Britta. I have no idea what it removes. He says it tastes better than tap, & is unconcerned about pathogens.

Here‘s hoping the powers that be are on top water issues & we don’t all die from tap water after conquering covid.

 

[Byron]

To see how rapidly these things can evolve to survive, just look at the mutations already occurring with the corona virus. All life forms have a strong "will" to survive and do whatever they do.

I'm not sure I will worry much about what is in my drinking water. Even aside from my cancer that could suddenly decide to finish me off within a few months, the effects of climate change we are now seeing and that will continue will finish us off well before the end of this century.