andy36yr19
Fish Fanatic
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How Long Should My Fish be in Total Darkness?
- Thread starter andy36yr19
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Not sure if anyone mentioned it but also with your plants (can’t remember how many you said you had) but although they are great for our tanks your lighting schedule is even more important because while the lights are on your plants are taking in the CO2 Ana putting out O2... what happens when plants go into darkness is the opposite... they can start to release their CO2 into the tank.... that’s a very very simplistic explanation of how it works but there are ways of using just your lighting to “trick” the plants into 2 photo periods a day so this won’t happen... but again depends on if your only going to keep a few plants or if you eventually want it to be a fully planted aquarium.... and you can do this without harming or confusing the fish in any way...
Also basically your fish will want 10-12 hours of light per day and the opposite of darkness (approximately) so you have to take into consideration where your tank is... how much real light it gets (like others have mentioned.... some of my tanks don’t get any real like so I set them to turn on at 7:15am and off at 6:15pm.... other tanks of mine get some ah light so they turn on at 7:15am but off at 5 because it’s still day light out until around 6 or 6:30.... depending on where you are from you may have to adjust your times for the time of year... for example I am in Canada and in summer it can stay day light until like 9pm but in winter it can be dark by 4:30....
Another good option is black out curtains... I use them in my living room tank.... I close them before I go to bed at night and I don’t open them until the Tank Lights turn on and then I close them when the tank lights turn off... many different options... but as mentioned above you need to look at your stocking and fix that up... that will cause you more problems then the lights.... also don’t use your moonlight setting at night as a night light (if that’s what you meant) it’s cruel to the fish... they want dark at night... not “dim light” they are just a gimmick if you ask me unless you want to turn them on and off as the sun rises and falls there is no need for them
Also basically your fish will want 10-12 hours of light per day and the opposite of darkness (approximately) so you have to take into consideration where your tank is... how much real light it gets (like others have mentioned.... some of my tanks don’t get any real like so I set them to turn on at 7:15am and off at 6:15pm.... other tanks of mine get some ah light so they turn on at 7:15am but off at 5 because it’s still day light out until around 6 or 6:30.... depending on where you are from you may have to adjust your times for the time of year... for example I am in Canada and in summer it can stay day light until like 9pm but in winter it can be dark by 4:30....
Another good option is black out curtains... I use them in my living room tank.... I close them before I go to bed at night and I don’t open them until the Tank Lights turn on and then I close them when the tank lights turn off... many different options... but as mentioned above you need to look at your stocking and fix that up... that will cause you more problems then the lights.... also don’t use your moonlight setting at night as a night light (if that’s what you meant) it’s cruel to the fish... they want dark at night... not “dim light” they are just a gimmick if you ask me unless you want to turn them on and off as the sun rises and falls there is no need for them
Alliesten
Fish Fanatic
Your tank should have a normal day and night cycle. I would leave the lights on for 8 hours a day, and off for the rest of the time. You can get a light timer if you want. Have it on for 4 hours in the morning, off for 4 hours in the afternoon, then on again for 4 hours at night. That way you have time to be able to watch the tank at night too.
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To quote a previous post with my highlighting
Byron is one of the most knowledgable members here, I would believe just about everything he says
Byron is one of the most knowledgable members here, I would believe just about everything he says
Alliesten
Fish Fanatic
To quote a previous post with my highlighting
Byron is one of the most knowledgable members here, I would believe just about everything he says
You specifically stated that you wanted to prevent algae. A lot of fish keepers use the “siesta” method. It is using a lighting cycle that is split into 2 time periods. It will disrupt the algae life/growth cycle, while still maintaining enough lights for your fish and plants. During the day, there is still daylight available, and the tank isn’t completely dark, it just doesn’t have the extra lights on.
What does “bad for fish” mean. Does it actually harm them? I mean there are fish in the wild that have parts of the day that are less light than other times. Sunny versus rainy. How will that harm them?
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My understanding is this.
The tank lights switched on simulates daylight in the natural river/ lake etc. environment.
Tank lights off but room has light (either daylight or electric light) simulates dawn and dusk in the natural environment.
Going from total darkness -> room light -> tank lights on -> room light -> darkness is equivalent to dark, dawn, day, dusk, night.
But darkness -> room light -> tank light -> room light -> tank light -> room light -> darkness is not natural. That's like dark, dawn, day, dawn, day, dusk, night. We can't overturn millions of years of evolution; fish are programmed to expect darkness followed by dawn, followed by daylight, followed by dusk, followed by night. The way to simulate periods of bright sunlight and cloud is by having at least 2 lights, and turning one of them off for a period of time during the single "tank light on" period. Some tank lights can now be programmed to simulate natural weather patterns with periods of bright tank lights and periods of slightly dimmer tank light.
I am not well educated in planted tanks, having just low light plants, but I was once told that a split period of "tank lights on" adversely affects plant growth as well. Perhaps one of the plant experts could tell us if this is true or not.
The tank lights switched on simulates daylight in the natural river/ lake etc. environment.
Tank lights off but room has light (either daylight or electric light) simulates dawn and dusk in the natural environment.
Going from total darkness -> room light -> tank lights on -> room light -> darkness is equivalent to dark, dawn, day, dusk, night.
But darkness -> room light -> tank light -> room light -> tank light -> room light -> darkness is not natural. That's like dark, dawn, day, dawn, day, dusk, night. We can't overturn millions of years of evolution; fish are programmed to expect darkness followed by dawn, followed by daylight, followed by dusk, followed by night. The way to simulate periods of bright sunlight and cloud is by having at least 2 lights, and turning one of them off for a period of time during the single "tank light on" period. Some tank lights can now be programmed to simulate natural weather patterns with periods of bright tank lights and periods of slightly dimmer tank light.
I am not well educated in planted tanks, having just low light plants, but I was once told that a split period of "tank lights on" adversely affects plant growth as well. Perhaps one of the plant experts could tell us if this is true or not.
That's easy, anything that is not causing stress to the fish. Here we try to promote the keep it natural and use less chemicals method.
So will proper tank maintenance, the correct lighting a few floating plants, keeping so called pest snails and not over feeding.
Beating algae is easy when you fix the root cause, the rest is just nonsense.
I forgot to mention something else.
Byron has stated many times that the tank light should not be turned on or off while the room is in total darkness. His posts explain the way fish's eyes work, and how the sudden transition from total darkness to bright light or bright light to total darkness is harmful to them.
The room curtains should be opened (if it's daylight yet) or the room light turned on an hour before the tank lights turn on to allow the fish's eyes to adjust. Similarly, the room curtains should be left open (if it's still daylight) or the room light left on for an hour after the tank lights turn off.
Byron has stated many times that the tank light should not be turned on or off while the room is in total darkness. His posts explain the way fish's eyes work, and how the sudden transition from total darkness to bright light or bright light to total darkness is harmful to them.
The room curtains should be opened (if it's daylight yet) or the room light turned on an hour before the tank lights turn on to allow the fish's eyes to adjust. Similarly, the room curtains should be left open (if it's still daylight) or the room light left on for an hour after the tank lights turn off.
My Kuhli loaches absolutely freak out if you just turn the lights full on, I I got a small LED strip that is connected to a programmable control box that comes on 30 minutes before the main light, it starts of dim and over 30 minutes to full brightness ( which is about 50% brightens of my main light ) when the main light comes on then the small LED strip turn off, It turns back on 3 minutes before the main light goes out, then dims down to nothing over 30 minutes.
Because I can and because it dont freak my Kuhlis out.
Some inaccurate information in earlier posts concerning the lighting/fish/plants needs correcting, and since I have been referenced I will repeat what I have posted elsewhere but can't remember when or where, so here it is afresh.
First to correct on the "siesta" approach. This is related to CO2 (carbon dioxide), and sometimes is suggested for low-tech or natural method planted tanks. Plants during sufficient light intensity (spectrum also factors in) photosynthesize. Carbon is a macro nutrient, so they assimilate CO2 as their preferred source of carbon; many species are able to utilize carbonates as well, but only a few use this over CO2, and some (mosses for example) cannot use carbonates at all. Plants photosynthesize full out when the lighting is sufficient and provided all nutrients (there are 17) are in adequate supply. As soon as any one of these (nutrients or light) is insufficient, photosynthesis slows and may even cease. That is when algae has an advantage, because it is not as fussy as higher plants when it comes to the light or nutrient availability. Provided plants are getting everything they need, and in balance (light and nutrients), algae is disadvantaged.
Adding mineral nutrients is easy, using prepared supplement fertilizers (if needed) in addition to water changes replacing minerals in some cases and fish foods providing nutrients in all cases. CO2 is the one nutrient for which we rely on the biological system (again, speaking low-tech or natural methods). Depending upon the light intensity and the other nutrient availability, CO2 is generally the first nutrient to become depleted. The "siesta" approach helps solve this deficiency.
All fish, plants and some bacteria species utilize (take up) oxygen and release CO2 in respiration. Note, all plants do this as well as fish and some bacteria. This is 24/7 with no change. During "daylight" plants take up CO2 and much more than they release. The result is that during darkness CO2 increases, and during sufficient daylight it is being assimilated by plants. Depending upon the plant species and numbers, the assimilation of CO2 may exhaust the available supply, and as mentioned above this means one essential macro-nutrient, carbon, is no longer sufficient, so photosynthesis slows and may even cease. The "siesta" approach was devised to provide a period of a few hours between two periods of "daylight" to allow the CO2 to rebuild. Without sufficient light intensity (during the "siesta"), plants cannot photosynthesize, so they are "resting" as it were.
That explains the idea behind the siesta approach, but the problem is that this does detrimentally impact fish. I will cover this in my next post, as it will make this one so long no one will bother reading it.
First to correct on the "siesta" approach. This is related to CO2 (carbon dioxide), and sometimes is suggested for low-tech or natural method planted tanks. Plants during sufficient light intensity (spectrum also factors in) photosynthesize. Carbon is a macro nutrient, so they assimilate CO2 as their preferred source of carbon; many species are able to utilize carbonates as well, but only a few use this over CO2, and some (mosses for example) cannot use carbonates at all. Plants photosynthesize full out when the lighting is sufficient and provided all nutrients (there are 17) are in adequate supply. As soon as any one of these (nutrients or light) is insufficient, photosynthesis slows and may even cease. That is when algae has an advantage, because it is not as fussy as higher plants when it comes to the light or nutrient availability. Provided plants are getting everything they need, and in balance (light and nutrients), algae is disadvantaged.
Adding mineral nutrients is easy, using prepared supplement fertilizers (if needed) in addition to water changes replacing minerals in some cases and fish foods providing nutrients in all cases. CO2 is the one nutrient for which we rely on the biological system (again, speaking low-tech or natural methods). Depending upon the light intensity and the other nutrient availability, CO2 is generally the first nutrient to become depleted. The "siesta" approach helps solve this deficiency.
All fish, plants and some bacteria species utilize (take up) oxygen and release CO2 in respiration. Note, all plants do this as well as fish and some bacteria. This is 24/7 with no change. During "daylight" plants take up CO2 and much more than they release. The result is that during darkness CO2 increases, and during sufficient daylight it is being assimilated by plants. Depending upon the plant species and numbers, the assimilation of CO2 may exhaust the available supply, and as mentioned above this means one essential macro-nutrient, carbon, is no longer sufficient, so photosynthesis slows and may even cease. The "siesta" approach was devised to provide a period of a few hours between two periods of "daylight" to allow the CO2 to rebuild. Without sufficient light intensity (during the "siesta"), plants cannot photosynthesize, so they are "resting" as it were.
That explains the idea behind the siesta approach, but the problem is that this does detrimentally impact fish. I will cover this in my next post, as it will make this one so long no one will bother reading it.
To continue, now respecting the impact of light on fish and why the "siesta" method is harmful. This requires some background knowledge of how light affects fish, and I will copy excerpts from an article I wrote some years back for another site.
Fish Eyes
The primary receptor of light is the eye, though all other external body cells are also highly sensitive to light. Fish eyes are not much different from those of other vertebrates including humans. Our eyes share a cornea, an iris, a lens, a pupil, and a retina. The latter contains rods which allow us to see in dim light and cones which perceive colours; while mammals (like us) have two types of cones, fish have three—one for each of the colours red, green and blue. These connect to nerve cells which transmit images to the brain, and the optic lobe is the largest part of the fish’s brain.
These cells are very delicate; humans have pupils that expand or contract to alter the amount of light entering the eye and eyelids, both of which help to prevent damage occurring due to bright light. Fish (with very few exceptions such as some shark species) do not have eyelids, and in most species their pupils are fixed and cannot alter. In bright light, the rods retract into the retina and the cones approach the surface; in dim light the opposite occurs. But unlike our pupils that change very quickly, this process in fish takes time. Scientific studies on salmon have shown that it takes half an hour for the eye to adjust to bright light, and an hour to adjust to dim light. This is why the aquarist should wait at least 30 minutes after the tank lights come on before feeding or performing a water change or other tank maintenance; this allows the fish to adjust to the light difference.
The Day/Night Cycle
Most animals have an internal body clock, called a circadian rhythm, which is modified by the light/dark cycle every 24 hours. This is the explanation for jet-lag in humans when time zones are crossed—our circadian rhythm is unbalanced and has to reset itself, which it does according to periods of light and dark. Our eyes play a primary role in this, but many of our body cells have some reaction to light levels. In fish this light sensitivity in their cells is very high.
Previously I mentioned that the rods and cones in the eye shift according to the changes in light. This process is also anticipated according to the time of day; the fish “expects” dawn and dusk, and the eyes will automatically begin to adjust accordingly. This is due to the circadian rhythm.
This is one reason why during each 24 hours a regular period of light/dark—ensuring there are several hours of complete darkness—is essential for the fish. In the tropics, day and night is equal for all 365 days a year, with approximately ten to twelve hours each of daylight and complete darkness, separated by fairly brief periods of dawn or dusk. The period of daylight produced by direct tank lighting can be shorter; and the period of total darkness can be somewhat shorter or longer—but there must be several hours of complete darkness in the aquarium. The dusk and dawn periods will appear to be stretched out, but that causes no problems for the fish. It is the bright overhead light that is the concern, along with having a suitable period of total darkness. And the "day" period when the tank lights are on should be one continuous period, not sporadic, and it should be the same every 24 hours or it will impact the circadian rhythm causing more stress.
Turning the Tank Light On/Off
When the tank light suddenly turns on in a dark room, fish will dive to the substrate, dash about frantically often hitting the glass sides of the aquarium, or even jump out of the water. The same reactions occur when the tank lights are suddenly turned out. Aside from any possible physical injury the fish may sustain, these sudden changes in the light cause significant stress to the fish. Bright camera flashes can also be stressful in the same way. So also would any unnatural effect such as strobe lighting.
Thom Demas, curator of fishes at the Tennessee Aquarium, defines stress as anything that threatens to disrupt an organism’s normal physical, mental and/or emotional state. The organism must then expend energy dealing with the stressor, which leaves it with less energy to deal with other things, such as pathogens. “If the fish are busy running from or hiding from that weird phenomenon of ‘instant lights on or off,’ they may be wasting energy to this stressor and eventually get sick from something that is most likely ubiquitous and that they would have tolerated had the stressing event not been there,” says Demas. There is now ample scientific evidence that in fish as in humans, stress at any level has a very negative impact on the immune system because it disrupts the physiological equilibrium of the fish.
The solution with tank lights is obvious: the room should always be reasonably well lit when the tank light comes on and when it goes off. As Marc Kind, curator of fishes and invertebrates at the Adventure Aquarium in Camden, New Jersey, says, “this is just good, sound husbandry.” Given the evidence mentioned previously of the time it takes for fish to adjust, the room should be lit for at least an hour before and after the tank light is turned on or off respectively. From my own experience this all but eliminates any frantic reactions from the fish. They will uniformly and quickly swim toward the room light source (be it light coming in the window or from a lamp) when the tank light goes off, but without frantic crashes and jumping into the tank cover glass which will otherwise occur.
Fish Eyes
The primary receptor of light is the eye, though all other external body cells are also highly sensitive to light. Fish eyes are not much different from those of other vertebrates including humans. Our eyes share a cornea, an iris, a lens, a pupil, and a retina. The latter contains rods which allow us to see in dim light and cones which perceive colours; while mammals (like us) have two types of cones, fish have three—one for each of the colours red, green and blue. These connect to nerve cells which transmit images to the brain, and the optic lobe is the largest part of the fish’s brain.
These cells are very delicate; humans have pupils that expand or contract to alter the amount of light entering the eye and eyelids, both of which help to prevent damage occurring due to bright light. Fish (with very few exceptions such as some shark species) do not have eyelids, and in most species their pupils are fixed and cannot alter. In bright light, the rods retract into the retina and the cones approach the surface; in dim light the opposite occurs. But unlike our pupils that change very quickly, this process in fish takes time. Scientific studies on salmon have shown that it takes half an hour for the eye to adjust to bright light, and an hour to adjust to dim light. This is why the aquarist should wait at least 30 minutes after the tank lights come on before feeding or performing a water change or other tank maintenance; this allows the fish to adjust to the light difference.
The Day/Night Cycle
Most animals have an internal body clock, called a circadian rhythm, which is modified by the light/dark cycle every 24 hours. This is the explanation for jet-lag in humans when time zones are crossed—our circadian rhythm is unbalanced and has to reset itself, which it does according to periods of light and dark. Our eyes play a primary role in this, but many of our body cells have some reaction to light levels. In fish this light sensitivity in their cells is very high.
Previously I mentioned that the rods and cones in the eye shift according to the changes in light. This process is also anticipated according to the time of day; the fish “expects” dawn and dusk, and the eyes will automatically begin to adjust accordingly. This is due to the circadian rhythm.
This is one reason why during each 24 hours a regular period of light/dark—ensuring there are several hours of complete darkness—is essential for the fish. In the tropics, day and night is equal for all 365 days a year, with approximately ten to twelve hours each of daylight and complete darkness, separated by fairly brief periods of dawn or dusk. The period of daylight produced by direct tank lighting can be shorter; and the period of total darkness can be somewhat shorter or longer—but there must be several hours of complete darkness in the aquarium. The dusk and dawn periods will appear to be stretched out, but that causes no problems for the fish. It is the bright overhead light that is the concern, along with having a suitable period of total darkness. And the "day" period when the tank lights are on should be one continuous period, not sporadic, and it should be the same every 24 hours or it will impact the circadian rhythm causing more stress.
Turning the Tank Light On/Off
When the tank light suddenly turns on in a dark room, fish will dive to the substrate, dash about frantically often hitting the glass sides of the aquarium, or even jump out of the water. The same reactions occur when the tank lights are suddenly turned out. Aside from any possible physical injury the fish may sustain, these sudden changes in the light cause significant stress to the fish. Bright camera flashes can also be stressful in the same way. So also would any unnatural effect such as strobe lighting.
Thom Demas, curator of fishes at the Tennessee Aquarium, defines stress as anything that threatens to disrupt an organism’s normal physical, mental and/or emotional state. The organism must then expend energy dealing with the stressor, which leaves it with less energy to deal with other things, such as pathogens. “If the fish are busy running from or hiding from that weird phenomenon of ‘instant lights on or off,’ they may be wasting energy to this stressor and eventually get sick from something that is most likely ubiquitous and that they would have tolerated had the stressing event not been there,” says Demas. There is now ample scientific evidence that in fish as in humans, stress at any level has a very negative impact on the immune system because it disrupts the physiological equilibrium of the fish.
The solution with tank lights is obvious: the room should always be reasonably well lit when the tank light comes on and when it goes off. As Marc Kind, curator of fishes and invertebrates at the Adventure Aquarium in Camden, New Jersey, says, “this is just good, sound husbandry.” Given the evidence mentioned previously of the time it takes for fish to adjust, the room should be lit for at least an hour before and after the tank light is turned on or off respectively. From my own experience this all but eliminates any frantic reactions from the fish. They will uniformly and quickly swim toward the room light source (be it light coming in the window or from a lamp) when the tank light goes off, but without frantic crashes and jumping into the tank cover glass which will otherwise occur.
Alliesten
Fish Fanatic
@Byron thank you for explaining. That was very informative. It is nice to see someone with actual reasons, and references to what they are talking about versus just regurgitating what they “heard”. I get tired of asking why, and no one actually knows why, they just heard it somewhere. I was an RN before I was disabled, and like evidence based practice, (just like with humans). You have certainly given me some things to think about.
As for my tanks, they have fancy lights that have dawn, daylight, dusk & dark settings. So I don’t use the siesta period. My big tank runs CO2, so no need to help conversion. The other 3 do well without CO2.
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As for my tanks, they have fancy lights that have dawn, daylight, dusk & dark settings. So I don’t use the siesta period. My big tank runs CO2, so no need to help conversion. The other 3 do well without CO2.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
AbbeysDad
Fish Gatherer
I agree,,,,but you gotta wonder how many tanks out there have lights on a timer and room lighting is never a factor?
I do double check info obtained from planted forums if I am uncertain. I regard myself as a fishkeeper first and foremost and the plants are only there to create a better environment for the fish - not the other way around.
So for example if I try a particular plant in my blackwater tank (which is full of fish that don't like bright light) and it fails to thrive because there is not enough light, the solution is to ditch the plant and try one that handles low light. This applies to additives as well as light and CO2 because if it is in the water its in the fish. Glutaraldehyde is a good example of this. Yes it does improve plant growth, but here is no such thing as liquid CO2 (well not that you can pour into an aquarium) and its not going into my fish.
So for example if I try a particular plant in my blackwater tank (which is full of fish that don't like bright light) and it fails to thrive because there is not enough light, the solution is to ditch the plant and try one that handles low light. This applies to additives as well as light and CO2 because if it is in the water its in the fish. Glutaraldehyde is a good example of this. Yes it does improve plant growth, but here is no such thing as liquid CO2 (well not that you can pour into an aquarium) and its not going into my fish.
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