High Nitrate Or Is It? Also Cory Cats Strange Behaviour?

[rabbut]

Nitrate toxicity

This link states the following;

"A nitrate concentration of 10 mg NO3-N/l (USA federal maximum level for drinking water) can adversely affect, at least during long-term exposures, freshwater invertebrates"

This supports your point on nitrate being toxic to aquatic life past, acording to this link, 44mg/l (converted again using conversion factor of 4.4) but the study ran on freshwater inverts, not fish. This link is of interest though, as it shows why some sites say keep nitrate below 50ppm; not due to the levels being toxic to fish, but toxic to invertibarates. There are fish listed in the link, but few are common in the hobby.

If we were dicussing nitrate toxidity to inverts, right now I would be agreeing with you that nitrate above 50ppm is a problem

However, no common hobby fish are listed as sensitive, and the link clearly states that these referenced species are nitrate sensitive ones.. With Rays and Rams, the 50ppm maximum may apply...

The stated test subjects though are nitrate sencitive, so I'm net yet ready to roll the findings of your research out across the entieraty of general tropicals.

PFK Magazine

Great link putting the above areticle into english for the general hobbyist, but it's reference in the above source.

And Rabbut - I believe one of the fishkeeping links actually backs up my theory. Did I not link one of the FK links about the Balloon Ram with red gills in a water of 40ppm nitrate?

On of the FK links may back your theory up, but I cannot see them, as I get a 404 page not found error for all three links


For the time being, I will say any detectable level is fine for most tropicals, but nitrate sencitive species shuch as discus, Rams and rays need nitrate below 50ppm

A compromise untill we solve nitrate toxidity fully with more research into the sector. I will try to find you some more links

I trust you are feeling better?

All the best
Rabbut

Edited to fix quotes

 

[TetraLinz]

Well, I guess it's a compromise

I am feeling better, yes, thanks.

 

[rabbut]

Great news, glad to have you back

 

[TetraLinz]

What?! Are you just one of these people who never take offence at anything or something? (Joking)

 

[rabbut]

 

[Rutters19]

Great advice from Rabbut!!

As far as i know nitrate is the least likely to cause any damage, in my tank it always seems to be pretty high even the day after my weekly water change.I have gouramis,angelfish,cories etc... and they are all absolutely fine.

How often do you feed your fish?Overfeeding could also be a reason for high levels of nitrate.Also do you have plants in your tank?Dead plant matter if not removed from a tank can decay and raise the nitrate levels in a tank.

Oh and your LFS is talking rubbish,as said high levels of nitrate isn't a problem,it's high levels of nitrite/ammonia that can be toxic to fish!

Hi Rutters,

I was feeding twice a day - morning and evening - but have cut back to once a day this week. I only feed what they can eat in a few mins as everyone instructs. Flaked food every day. Brine shimp sachet once a week. 4/6 shelled peas maybe once a fornight. I do keep cucumber, hanging off the side at all times tho? Some fish (gouramis/molly/otto) nibble on the cucumber all day/night till there's just an outline left, which I just replace constantly.

We removed the two plants we had in as they were quite 'ratty' as the gouramis kept nibbling them so we only have one plant on a piece of wood at the moment.

What do you think?

Thanks

Hi again,forgot about this thread,lol!!

I only feed my fish once a day, anything from flake food,to a range of frozen foods such as bloodworm,brine shrimp etc... and i feed my bristlenose plecs and cories a couple of sinking wafers aswell. Your right in only feeding your fish what they can eat in a few mintues aswell. I also feed my plecs etc cucumber on a regular basis.

Now onto the debate side of things....

...I'm sorry TetraLinz, but to simply state that Rabbut is "wrong" in my mind comes across as very arrogant!!
The only side of things about nitrate being "toxic" to fish above 40ppm your putting across is from your own experiences, aswell as that of somebody who is a superior fish keeper than anyone else.How can you make such a bold statement?Do you know EVERY reputable fish keeper there is?Me thinks NOT!!

From all of what i have researched about levels of nitrate, i have never found anything stating that the levels you are stating being toxic to fish!!Even in the test kits, it only states that high levels of nitrate over a long period may increase stress in fish, but says nothing about 40ppm being toxic to fish. How long to you is a "pro-longed" period of time?My tank has been set up for around 3years or so now, and my nitrate reading has always been high, as in 100ppm, even soon after water changes etc... and nothing seems to reduce it. I have had many fish that i have had from the beginning (Angelfish,cories etc...) and they are all absolutely fine.

As Rabbut has said everyone has their own personal experiences, but with no scientifically proven evidence to what you are saying there is no back bone in it. For every person you say has your opinion there'll be one that has our's, it's swings and roundabouts.

Obviously some fish are going to be more sensitive than others, but as i said before it's ammonia and nitrite that are TOXIC to fish (which is a scientifically proven FACT), and not nitrate.

 

[TetraLinz]

Great advice from Rabbut!!

As far as i know nitrate is the least likely to cause any damage, in my tank it always seems to be pretty high even the day after my weekly water change.I have gouramis,angelfish,cories etc... and they are all absolutely fine.

How often do you feed your fish?Overfeeding could also be a reason for high levels of nitrate.Also do you have plants in your tank?Dead plant matter if not removed from a tank can decay and raise the nitrate levels in a tank.

Oh and your LFS is talking rubbish,as said high levels of nitrate isn't a problem,it's high levels of nitrite/ammonia that can be toxic to fish!

Hi Rutters,

I was feeding twice a day - morning and evening - but have cut back to once a day this week. I only feed what they can eat in a few mins as everyone instructs. Flaked food every day. Brine shimp sachet once a week. 4/6 shelled peas maybe once a fornight. I do keep cucumber, hanging off the side at all times tho? Some fish (gouramis/molly/otto) nibble on the cucumber all day/night till there's just an outline left, which I just replace constantly.

We removed the two plants we had in as they were quite 'ratty' as the gouramis kept nibbling them so we only have one plant on a piece of wood at the moment.

What do you think?

Thanks

Hi again,forgot about this thread,lol!!

I only feed my fish once a day, anything from flake food,to a range of frozen foods such as bloodworm,brine shrimp etc... and i feed my bristlenose plecs and cories a couple of sinking wafers aswell. Your right in only feeding your fish what they can eat in a few mintues aswell. I also feed my plecs etc cucumber on a regular basis.

Now onto the debate side of things....

...I'm sorry TetraLinz, but to simply state that Rabbut is "wrong" in my mind comes across as very arrogant!!
The only side of things about nitrate being "toxic" to fish above 40ppm your putting across is from your own experiences, aswell as that of somebody who is a superior fish keeper than anyone else.How can you make such a bold statement?Do you know EVERY reputable fish keeper there is?Me thinks NOT!!

From all of what i have researched about levels of nitrate, i have never found anything stating that the levels you are stating being toxic to fish!!Even in the test kits, it only states that high levels of nitrate over a long period may increase stress in fish, but says nothing about 40ppm being toxic to fish. How long to you is a "pro-longed" period of time?My tank has been set up for around 3years or so now, and my nitrate reading has always been high, as in 100ppm, even soon after water changes etc... and nothing seems to reduce it. I have had many fish that i have had from the beginning (Angelfish,cories etc...) and they are all absolutely fine.

As Rabbut has said everyone has their own personal experiences, but with no scientifically proven evidence to what you are saying there is no back bone in it. For every person you say has your opinion there'll be one that has our's, it's swings and roundabouts.

Obviously some fish are going to be more sensitive than others, but as i said before it's ammonia and nitrite that are TOXIC to fish (which is a scientifically proven FACT), and not nitrate.

How about you read the rest of the post and not just what you want to read?!

 

[Rutters19]

Great advice from Rabbut!!

As far as i know nitrate is the least likely to cause any damage, in my tank it always seems to be pretty high even the day after my weekly water change.I have gouramis,angelfish,cories etc... and they are all absolutely fine.

How often do you feed your fish?Overfeeding could also be a reason for high levels of nitrate.Also do you have plants in your tank?Dead plant matter if not removed from a tank can decay and raise the nitrate levels in a tank.

Oh and your LFS is talking rubbish,as said high levels of nitrate isn't a problem,it's high levels of nitrite/ammonia that can be toxic to fish!

Hi Rutters,

I was feeding twice a day - morning and evening - but have cut back to once a day this week. I only feed what they can eat in a few mins as everyone instructs. Flaked food every day. Brine shimp sachet once a week. 4/6 shelled peas maybe once a fornight. I do keep cucumber, hanging off the side at all times tho? Some fish (gouramis/molly/otto) nibble on the cucumber all day/night till there's just an outline left, which I just replace constantly.

We removed the two plants we had in as they were quite 'ratty' as the gouramis kept nibbling them so we only have one plant on a piece of wood at the moment.

What do you think?

Thanks

Hi again,forgot about this thread,lol!!

I only feed my fish once a day, anything from flake food,to a range of frozen foods such as bloodworm,brine shrimp etc... and i feed my bristlenose plecs and cories a couple of sinking wafers aswell. Your right in only feeding your fish what they can eat in a few mintues aswell. I also feed my plecs etc cucumber on a regular basis.

Now onto the debate side of things....

...I'm sorry TetraLinz, but to simply state that Rabbut is "wrong" in my mind comes across as very arrogant!!
The only side of things about nitrate being "toxic" to fish above 40ppm your putting across is from your own experiences, aswell as that of somebody who is a superior fish keeper than anyone else.How can you make such a bold statement?Do you know EVERY reputable fish keeper there is?Me thinks NOT!!

From all of what i have researched about levels of nitrate, i have never found anything stating that the levels you are stating being toxic to fish!!Even in the test kits, it only states that high levels of nitrate over a long period may increase stress in fish, but says nothing about 40ppm being toxic to fish. How long to you is a "pro-longed" period of time?My tank has been set up for around 3years or so now, and my nitrate reading has always been high, as in 100ppm, even soon after water changes etc... and nothing seems to reduce it. I have had many fish that i have had from the beginning (Angelfish,cories etc...) and they are all absolutely fine.

As Rabbut has said everyone has their own personal experiences, but with no scientifically proven evidence to what you are saying there is no back bone in it. For every person you say has your opinion there'll be one that has our's, it's swings and roundabouts.

Obviously some fish are going to be more sensitive than others, but as i said before it's ammonia and nitrite that are TOXIC to fish (which is a scientifically proven FACT), and not nitrate.

How about you read the rest of the post and not just what you want to read?!

FYI-I spent a LOT of time last night reading everything posted in this thread, and your comments are as said experiences of one superior fish keeper you know, and others you don't know from a "far better forum than this one", with no scientific FACTS to back up what you are saying. I'm not going to go through every link you posted again and pick out quotes etc...as i have better things to do, and Rabbut seems to have done a pretty good job of that anyway.

It is a scientifically proven FACT that ammonia and nitrite are toxic to fish, but as yet there is no scientific proven evidence to substantiate your claims of levels of nitrate 40ppm and above being toxic. I'm not saying you are totally wrong (as i am not arrogant in that way), but you are neither right in what you are saying, as nothing has been proven as of yet.

 

[TetraLinz]

FYI, if you read through the the posts as you claim to "have spent a lot of time reading through the posts", you would have seen that this argument - which is between Rabbut and myself - has reached a compromise, and that I have included a link that suggests nitrate IS toxic to freshwater invertibrates. The link suggests that keepers keep nitrate below 20ppm N0-3.

My arguments are NOT just based on my own experiences - or that of a far superior fishkeeper - it's based on independent research carried out when I first started in the hobby.

NOW look who's arrogant!! You claim I'm arrogant, yet even Rabbut states that by not reading his link (which I later DID) I was arrogant. By not reading MY links - you're showing yoruself as the one that's arrogant. Takes one to know one.

 

[andywg]

FYI, if you read through the the posts as you claim to "have spent a lot of time reading through the posts", you would have seen that this argument - which is between Rabbut and myself - has reached a compromise, and that I have included a link that suggests nitrate IS toxic to freshwater invertibrates.

But let us discuss fish. You made the claim that nitrates at 20ppm is as toxic as nitrite or ammonia in the water. We know for sure that ammonia and nitrite in small quantities can have an effect due to the numerous studies on the growth rate of fish farmed for food. It is from these studies we know that you want ammonia and nitrite to be 0 whenever possible. Similar studies with regards to nitrates seem to indicate that far higher levels are safe, as noted by the papers cited by Tom Barr which Rabbut linked to.

The link suggests that keepers keep nitrate below 20ppm N0-3.

One suggestion from one link. Almost every other link (including ones you have posted) suggests 100 ppm is fine.

My arguments are NOT just based on my own experiences - or that of a far superior fishkeeper - it's based on independent research carried out when I first started in the hobby.

Care to post a link to that research including methods and repeatability? Just claiming you have independant research without actually detailing it is the same as personal experiences.

To summarise; I'm still seeing nothing that suggests our fish have issues below 100ppm. You have one paper which is giving a recommendation of 20ppm, yet there are far more papers suggesting at least 100ppm is fine.

 

[TetraLinz]

I'm getting bored of this argument (and, frankly, the site) now, but here's yet MORE links to support my argument.

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

 

[WILDER]

I would take this debate to the science part of the forum, members don't need agruments in there posts.

 

[TetraLinz]

Sorry Wilder. Personally, I thought the argument was over anyway.

 

[WILDER]

Thats fine then.
You could start a thread in the science part of the forum then you can debate there lol.

 

[TetraLinz]

Errrrrm . . . I don't think I'll bother